Washington Nationals: Out On Cliff Lee? In On Zack Greinke?
The Winter Meetings ended with some "What did he say exactly?" chatter centered around D.C. GM's final comments from Florida about the Nats' pursuit of free agent left-hander Cliff Lee, but Washington Post writer Adam Kilgore ended the discussion pretty definitively when he quoted an unnamed Nats source in a Nationals Journal post entitled, "The free agent dominoes fall with Carl Crawford, Cliff Lee", who said that the Nationals would go up to seven-years to meet the New York Yankees' offer to the 32-year-old starter, "...if hell freezes over." (ed. note - "Or is that just more obfuscation from the RZO's leak-free front office?") Still, when SI.com writer Jon Heyman (@SI_JonHeyman) wrote last night on Twitter that the, "favored #yankees have offered more $, 1 more guaranteed yr than #rangers. but c. lee liked texas, has 3rd team in mix," some held out hope that the Nats could be the wild card in the Rangers and Yankees' pursuit of the old Expos' draft pick.
Not so, Mr. Heyman wrote this morning on Twitter in response to a follower who asked if Washington was the "mystery" team which inevitably seems to emerge in each big free agent sweepstakes like this. "No, Nats aren't in Lee," Mr. Heyman wrote, but, "They are looking at Greinke [though]," as are the Brewers, Dodgers and Blue Jays and whichever team between the Rangers and Yankees loses out on Lee as the SI.com writer had reported earlier last night.
MLB.com's Bill Ladson retweeted a report out of Kansas City last night in which Royals beat writer Bob Dutton (@Royals_Report) reported that KC GM Dayton Moore was "in listen-only mode" saying, "I haven’t made one call to one organization asking them if they’re interested in Zack Greinke," but various reports have said other teams, including the Nationals, have made calls to the Royals, and quoted sources close to Greinke who say he's ready to move on.
The problem with trading for a front-line starter, as has been noted from the start of such talk, is reiterated in Washington Post writer Adam Kilgore's story on the Nats' remaining in the mix for Carl Pavano, entitled, "Nationals still in on Carl Pavano', in which the WaPost writer says that whether it's the Royals and Greinke or the Tampa Bay Rays and Matt Garza, any trade, "...would almost certainly require giving up shortstop Ian Desmond and probably Jordan Zimmermann, too, along with other players." Creating new holes by filling others.
• Random Notes: Navegantes de Magallanes catcher Jesus Flores had a tough start to last night's Liga Venezuela Beisbol Profesional game against the Bravos de Margarita, comitting a throwing error and grounding into an inning-ending double play to leave the Nats' catcher 0 for 3 after six innings, though he did manage to connect for a one-out single in the top of the ninth before a game-ending DP left him 1 for 4 with a .360/.396/.520 slash line after 14 games and 50 at bats. Wilson Ramos was 1 for 4 with a run scored last night in VWL action, and the Nats' catcher is now hitting .313 with a .368 OBP and a .513 SLG after 29 games and 115 at bats for the Tigres de Aragua. For anyone following the Liga de Beisbol Dominicano this winter, Elvin Ramirez, the Nats' first Rule 5 selection from the Mets' organization, is pitching for the Gigantes del Cibao, where the 23-year-old 6'3'' right-hander is (1-1) with a 2.14 ERA in 16 relief appearances and 21.0 IP in which he's given up 16 hits, 6 runs, 5 earned and 4 walks while recording 26 K's.
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I would really like to keep Zimmermann
but if that is our last resort, then the deal should be made.
Skins rule
I'm that way about Desmond, too
I would really not like to lose both of those guys.
Rob
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -- Rogers Hornsby
Depends on Lee...
If Lee goes to the Yankees, I think the Rangers shift their focus on Zack who have the prospects the Royals are interested in. I think we have a shot if the Yanks lose out. DC seems like a good fit for Zack, if the Royals take us seriously(which seems to be happening these days) I think Rizzo makes the right decision. That being said, losing Zimmermann would be tough.
by NatsGoing2theSeries! on Dec 11, 2010 1:19 PM EST reply actions
Yes
but, then, Zimmermann certainly could be just as good.
The difference is that Greinke is pretty much guaranteed to be that good for 200+ innings, whereas our young kid hasn’t pitched over 100 innings in a year yet (or been that good).
there's another important difference
Zimmermann has much longer under team control; Greinke lost his curve a bit last year, too … probably not serious long term but no one is a sure thing. Considering all that, I’d be pissed if they gave up both Zimm and Desmond, and even think giving up just the 4 years of Zimm for 2 of Greinke is a mistake.
by William.Hatheway on Dec 11, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
I'd assume any deal with the Nats getting Greinke...
Would be contingent on them signing him to an extension? Trading for two years of Greinke makes little sense unless you think 2012 is the year the Nats make their first serious run.
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Dec 11, 2010 4:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
see the 2011 Bill James lines
for Greinke and Zimmermann and compare that to previous performance
This could be Jordan’s year to make it like we all know he can, or the year he disappoints again. Trading him for Greinke is for those who don’t want to deal with the possibility of failure and are willing to pay for that luxury.
"Again"?
I don’t recall ever being “disappointed” with Zimmermann. I remember being really bummed about his TJ surgery, but that’s completely different/
Rob
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -- Rogers Hornsby
Was just thinking this today...
You’d be trading for Greinke and hoping last year’s drop in performance had more to do with attitude than any diminished skill and hoping he bounces back to Cy Young form vs hoping Zimmermann lives up to his prec-Tommy John potential…but the Nats giving up Zimmermann, Desmond and more is where I start to get worried…
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Dec 11, 2010 4:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Have you seen the PitchFx on Greinke?
His slider lost some of the horizontal movement that made it so effective, his fastball some zip, and his curve both horizontal and vertical movement. All are small, but considering that that covers his aresenal, it is a bit concerning…
by William.Hatheway on Dec 11, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
He was also playing for a crappy team...
with no run support and poor backup. Maybe that contributed to some of his drop off. (Waiting for the stat guys to go nuts over this remark. Heh)
But I read various articles about him being frustrated by the team.
I’m all in for Greinke and hope the Nats can land him. I also think he doesn’t want to play in NYC and for the Yankees. (and these rose-tinted glasses I’m wearing make things ever so nice!)
"Baseball is a game played by the dexterous but only understood by the POIN-dexterous."
Professor Frink (from MoneyBart Episode )
by MissB on Dec 11, 2010 5:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I was thinking of a pair of rose-tints myself...
But I hope he’ll want to avoid NYC (easy to imagine it’d be true)… though while his crappy team may have gotten to him, I’m not so sure that that would impact the movement of one’s pitches!
by William.Hatheway on Dec 11, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
The youth system for the Nats is solid
but the fact that we have still yet to improve our SP is laughable
We need a LOT, LOT, LOT of pitching right now if we want to win

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