Weighing the Positives and Negatives of the Nats' Pursuit of Zack Greinke, Matt Garza, and Carl Pavano
It's certainly been an active offseason so far for the Nats, and the likelihood is that they're going to continue to pop up in just about any rumor involving a starting pitcher on the market. There are many of us (myself included) who would hate to see the Nats enter Spring Training with a similar grouping of fifth starter and AAAA types to the group that we've seen the past few seasons. While there's certainly a difference in the quality of the starting pitching that appears to be available at this point, there also figures to be a significant difference in the pricetag (be it in terms of players traded or money spent) that will be necessary to acquire said players. Because of this, we need to focus not only on what the Nats would be acquiring, but whether the price would be too high or not.
Let's start by listing some of the options that appear to be available on the current market: We'll just go alphabetically for starters:
Other potentially less attractive options (for one reason or another) are out there who could possibly help as well, such as:
Alright. We're going with eight names, three of whom (Carmona, Garza, and Greinke) are currently under contract with another team and would require a cost in personnel to acquire. Let's examine what the Nats should try to do.
Since arguably the three top pitchers available are players that would require a trade to acquire, we should probably first look at what the Nats should try to accomplish in adding a pitcher. Most feel that the Nats need to add an ace starting pitcher, which is what their goal was in pursuing Cliff Lee. I don't think that there were very many of us who felt the club had much of a shot to acquire Lee, so I don't think that many of us are too disappointed. Since Lee was the only real "ace" on the free agent market, the question is whether or not the Nats truly need to go all in to acquire one. My answer is a resounding "No!"
Considering the current talent in the Nationals organization, the current pursuit of a starter in the market should have one basic goal in mind:
Find a top-to-middle of the rotation arm who can complement Stephen Strasburg (2012 and beyond) AND Jordan Zimmermann to set up a strong 1-2-3 punch
Any move that the Nationals make which trades away Zimmermann is counterproductive at this point. The on-field improvement last year was noticeable as they jumped from 59 wins (2008 and 2009) to 69 wins. There's plenty of young talent at the big league level that figures to continue to improve, such as Ian Desmond, Danny Espinosa, and even FoF Ryan Zimmerman, who is still just creeping up on a typical ballplayers' prime. The addition of Jayson Werth in Adam Dunn's place should provide similar offensive production at a fraction of the defensive cost. This team is getting better, and making a real push at .500 this season with another solid move or two isn't out of the question. Making a real push at contention, on the other hand, doesn't look like something that we can hope for in 2011. Upgrading a current middle of the rotation starter (with the upside to be more) such as Zimmermann and replacing him with a more established (and expensive) ace while basically creating a hole where Zimmermann should be makes no sense.
Yes... My statement above pretty much eliminates the pursuit of the top option on the list, but let's take a look anyway, shall we?
Zack Greinke - There are ups and downs with many young pitchers, and Greinke certainly had his fair share of each of them early in his career. Once hailed as the next Greg Maddux, Greinke does have outstanding control, having averaged just 2.27 BB/9 IP throughout his career. What is not Maddux-like is his velocity, as he's averaged 93+ MPH on his fastball four years running. He brings huge strikeout production to the table, has won a Cy Young award, and has averaged 5.25 WAR since returning to the big leagues full-time in 2007 after a bout with social anxiety disorder. In spite of the risk the social anxiety entails, Greinke is a legitimate ace.
The Cost - The Royals may boast the most loaded farm system in all of baseball right now, with some really good young pitching (John Lamb, Mike Montgomery, Danny Duffy), stars in the making at both corner infield spots (Eric Hosmer and Mike Moustakas), and a brilliant hitting prospect behind the plate who doesn't figure to stick there defensively (Wil Myers). They're a little soft in the middle, and either Danny Espinosa or Ian Desmond could be one cornerstone piece of a deal. They might also like to bolster their long-term options behind the plate with a player more likely to stay there defensively (Derek Norris or Wilson Ramos), and they'd certainly want a big league starter in return (Jordan Zimmermann). The last one is an absolute dealbreaker, as it makes acquiring Greinke counterproductive. Financially, Greinke is signed for the next two years at $13.5 million per season.
Matt Garza - He's a clear notch below Greinke in terms of both consistency and productivity. In terms of season-long production, Garza has looked extremely consistent the past few years (ERA - 3.69, 3.90, 3.95, 3.91... FIP - 4.18, 4.14, 4.17, 4.42), but he's been very streaky within those seasons. His strikeout rate has always been fairly strong (7.10/9 IP in his career), but fluctuates a bit more from year to year. While walks aren't a big problem for him, Garza isn't nearly as strong as Greinke here (3.10 BB/9). If you're one who likes to number starters, Garza is more of a #2/#3 type, while Greinke is a #1. He'd be a terrific addition, though he wouldn't be the "ace" that Rizzo claims he wanted to add.
The Cost - Like Greinke, Garza is under another club's control right now, though he technically hasn't signed a contract. Garza is arbitration eligible through the 2013 season, meaning any team that acquires him instead of Greinke will acquire an extra year of club control. Though not the caliber of Greinke, the fact that he comes cheaper financially and at a longer term makes him about as attractive a trade chip.
The Rays' needs are a bit harder to assess, though they may actually fit what the Nats would be willing (and/or not insane) to give up. Given that they're shopping Garza because they have perhaps a little too much depth in big league starting pitching (Is there such a thing?), they almost certainly wouldn't ask for Zimmermann as part of the return. Instead, they would probably be focused on bullpen help (I'd hate to give up Storen, or even Clippard, but that's a more acceptable pitching loss) and a bat or two. Given that they dealt Jason Bartlett away, some would be inclined to think that there wasn't a big need for a shortstop, but they'd probably be wrong. Reid Brignac brings a solid enough glove, but hasn't shown much power, speed, or patience at the big league level at the plate. Former #1 pick Tim Beckham hasn't quite hit the development stage Tampa had hoped he would yet. Either Espinosa or (more likely) Ian Desmond would have to be a target, as could Josh Willingham (established right-handed power for a team with designs on contending again in 2011) or Derek Norris (while their system is still loaded, Norris [and probably Ramos] would improve their future behind the plate). They could also use a long-term 1b option, but unless they seem more confident in Chris Marrero than the Nats do, I don't think there's anyihing to work in there. If the Nats go the trade route, Garza is who they should push hardest for.
Carl Pavano - Pavano comes in next on our list ahead of the (supposedly) recently available Fausto Carmona because we know what the Nats would have to give up for him... money, and only money. Pavano disappeared for a few years after the Yankees signed him, but has put together consecutive solid seasons (the first split between Cleveland and Minnesota, and the second just with the Twins) to show that there's still some life in his right arm. Unlike Garza and Greinke (both 27), the Nats would likely be acquiring a player in decline (Pavano will turn 35 in January). The strikeout production is a bit low, but so are the walk totals. Pavano would make for a strong #3 on a contending team, and isn't the ace the Nats have said they're looking to acquire. Still, he's a far better solution than running Luis Atilano out there 25 times, isn't he?
The Cost - Just throwing a number out there. 3 years, $30 million(ish)?
Fausto Carmona - The fact that Carmona is recently being discussed as an option available on the trade market makes me question whether the Indians plan on becoming the new Marlins. Like Garza and Greinke, Carmona is 27. He's not being paid exorbitantly, though, and he's not up for free agency for a couple of years. Unlike the Rays, the Indians do not have six (at least) big league starters ready to pitch in their rotation this season. Then again, they could just be trying to maximize Carmona's value based on the fact that he rebounded nicely in 2010 after having made one of everyone's favorite (movie) Indians' pitchers Rick Vaughn look like a control pitcher in 2008 and 2009. There's upside (read: 19-8, 3.06 ERA, top five Cy Young finish in 2007), but there's an extreme lack of consistency here as well. He's certainly not the ace the Nats want, but whether he's a 3, 4, or a 5 could depend on which Carmona is real.
The Cost - It's harder to gauge, since he's a fairly new name on the market. My best guess is that the Indians would be looking for more young starting pitching (predominantly in the high minors/minimal big league service time), a possible third outfield option to go with Choo and Sizemore (though Brantley has nice potential... someone who could challenge him in the next year or two), bullpen help (not necessarily at closer, as they seem set with Chris Perez), and a middle infielder. In truth, Carmona wouldn't be worth Desmond straight up... he wouldn't be worth Zimmermann straight up... Maybe Clippard and a Michael Burgess type? Anything else would be a massive overpay. The more I think about it, the less attractive he is as an alternative.
Brandon Webb - In the past few seasons, we've seen disappointment from the Chien-Ming Wang signing, the acquisition of Scott Olsen, and.... well... let's forget that Cabrera guy. In short, the Nats' efforts to take a rehab effort on the cheap and turn it into gold (a la Chris Carpenter with the Cardinals... or the aforementioned Carl Pavano with the Indians/Twins) have been an epic fail. In truth, none of those guys were as dominant at their peak as Webb was. There's certainly a lot of risk in taking on a guy who hasn't pitched in two years (save for one start in 2009), but that also means you're getting him at a discount. When Webb last pitched a full season in 2008, he was 22-7 with a 3.30 ERA, a 3.36 FIP, and a 183:65 strikeout to walk ratio. He finished no lower than second in the Cy Young balloting in the last three seasons he pitched, including one Cy Young award in 2006. He's still only 32. Without losing personnel, there's not much downside here.
The Cost - Webb reportedly said he'd be seeking $7.5+ in guarantees last summer. It's hard to imagine that happening, though. The assumption is that he'll sign somewhere in the $4 to $5 million range on a short-term contract with incentives that could kick it into the $10 million range. If the Nats could get him for $5 million or less guaranteed and add incentives to kick it to $10-$12 million with a vesting option, he could be well worth that gamble.
Jeff Francis - Like the Nats, Francis' roots are in Canada. He didn't look spectacular after returning from surgery that cost him all of 2009 last season, though the 29-year-old lefty did finish the campaign with a 3.88 FIP. The velocity never developed as many had hoped it would for Francis, and he's basically stopped throwing his slider since his return. However, he was an established control and command type before his lost year, and the Rockies really just developed too many other options around him to keep him around. He's more of a middle to back end starter, and would probably compare favorably with what we're used to seeing out of John Lannan.
The Cost - Francis is said to be seeking $4 million through free agency. He might be worth it at $2 million.
Brad Penny - Perhaps as talented as anyone on this list, Penny is incosistent and oft-injured. The Cardinals ignored that risk and signed him to a 1 year, $7.5 million contract for 2010, and while he was good when he was healthy....... well, Penny made nine starts before his season ended when he hurt his back (get this) hitting a grand slam.
The Cost - You have to figure that after making just 9 starts last season when teams already shied away largely because of his injury history, Penny figures to take a substantial paycut wherever he lands. I can't imagine him getting more than a $2 or $3 million incentive laden deal. The Nats could do worse, but there's so much risk here.
Kevin Millwood - No, he wasn't very good across the Beltway last year, was he? Since 2006, he's basically been a fourth starter, and his inclusion on this list is really telling as to how bad the Nats options get in the rotation other than Zimmermann (for this season, at least). If there's an example of why the Nats should not deal to upgrade J-Zimm (rather than to give him some help), the fact that they could look at Millwood and think that he'd be a lock for a rotation spot is it.
The Cost - Almost certainly entirely too much. He's a Boras client, and he's likely to get close to $5 million. He'd be nothing more than an innings eater, though he is at least pretty durable.
There are, of course, other options still out there... guys like Erik Bedard, Dave Bush, Jeremy Bonderman, and John Maine. Some of them were non-tendered. Some of them are coming off of injuries and their status is up in the air. I just tried to pick some of the more likely options and/or guys that looked like fits.
So who should the Nats go after from this group? Put me squarely in the camp of Matt Garza, though the idea is that they shouldn't necessarily stop there. In all honesty, acquiring Greinke (which they'd almost certainly have to move J-Zimm to do) wouldn't be a complete step backwards, but it wouldn't be a full step forward either because of what they'd have to give up. Going after Garza would require plenty in terms of personnel, but it wouldn't be likely to create a hole in the spot right behind the hole you're trying to fill. Instead, it would probably require trading personnel at spots where the Nats have a little more depth. Carmona just kind of disinterests me, as he's so inconsistent and it's harder to gauge what the Tribe would want for him.
The likelihood is that if the Nats do acquire one of the three pitchers above via trade, they pull themselves out of the Carl Pavano sweepstakes (which might not be the worst thing in the world... I do think Pavano would be a good addition, though there's a fair amount of risk based on his age and expected career path alone), but I'd urge that they should remain in the market for Webb. The risk in terms of personnel exchanged (none) and financially (mid-level for a proven high-end pitcher coming off of injury) provides the Nats with an opportunity to add a terrific starter at something that figures to be a bit of a bargain. Realistically, if he were to come back and be half the pitcher (in terms of WAR) that he was in the five seasons prior to his injury, the Nats would see a positive return based on the marketplace for even the $7.5 million guaranteed that his supposed asking price was going to be over the summer.
This club isn't an upgrade in the rotation away from contention. It's two starters (if Strasburg were healthy) away from even really considering being in contention. Trade Adam Du.... Get Dan Hud.... Aww. Forget it!
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Hope somebody surfaces this post. Could add much clarity to the starting pitching stuff
1) What would you think of Burnett, Storen, and Marrero for Garza? My take as I’d overpay for the relievers that the Rays would want, aggressively sign the leftovers of the free agent market and role the dice with volume of young talent in the bullpen. Yes, our bullpen could turn into a pumpkin expecting guys like Clippard to be an acceptable closer, Balester to be an 8th inning guy on a regular basis, Slaten to be your main lefty instead of supplemental lefty in the pen, Stammen to be more than Miguel Batista, and the young guys of Kimball, Carr, one of the Rule 5 guys, maybe even convert Detwiler to a reliever quickly if he struggles out of the gate at AAA? as your young depth. The deal here is that you have potential young controllable options, I’m not sold on Burnett being long term as good as he was at the end of last year, and I’m thinking Storen’s a good closer but he’s not Jonothan Papelbon.
You can build relief pitching on the fly. That kind of move feels like the Willingham move did. You trade cheap and lower ceiling for more expensive and potential impact player. I like dealing with teams that are looking to shed salary. I’m also hoping that the price is reasonable because the Rays will demand more from the Yankees for being inside the division, the Yankees don’t have the young bullpen parts, and if I were the Rangers I’d focus on Greinke.
2) Alternatively, I trade Willingham and a reliever, probably Clippard. I’d probably bend and give them their choice of one of the other relievers in the deal. Willingham would be a great fit, but he’s basically a one year rental plus at least a sandwich pick for the Rays. Don’t know how short term or long term to pick. Personally, I’d prefer that deal to the one I listed above. Regardless, I’m willing to overpay in low ceiling guys if that’s what it takes to get the deal done. If they want guys like Marrero, Burgess, or Lombardozzi to feel that there getting more shots at the prospect lottery I’d certainly consider adding them in any of these deals. Our real prospects are in the lower minors. If everybody was smart, they’d consider JP Ramirez over any of those guys. His real ceiling is probably somewhere in the American League where the DH option is open. So now that I’m done brainstorming, Josh Willingham as a current DH option, JP Ramirez as a longershot DH option for the Rays, Clippard, and maybe Adam Carr or AJ Morris of their choice as a longershot but likely affordable reliever would be what I’d prefer to give them and something that they might accept.
3) I don’t want to give American Idle (Carl Pavano) 3 years. Two years and maybe something that vests with incentives I’d hold my nose and do. Unlike with Werth, you’d hope that guys controllable college draft picks like Solis, a 2011 college draft pick, or the lower ceiling upper minors or young guys (Meyers Miracle?, Milone Underdog?, Cole rises fast?) are nipping at his heels as controllable 3/4 starters by the time he hits his late career swoon. Signing Pavano is really an overpay for one year in my opinion.
4) On Carmona: Perhaps the Indians would give us a discount for developing their current managerial genius Manny Acta? Agree with you that he’s not worth trading but so much. Wouldn’t it be great if Manny Acta misses John Lannan so much he’d take him as one of the significant pieces in the deal?
5) Agree with you on Greinke very much. Too expensive and the Cliff Lee losers not named NYC will all want to go after him pretty harder.
6) As far as the rest of your back end guys, I’m curious about what your thoughts about or chances of landing Chien-Ming Wang and his contract demands. That we can’t work some kind of hometown discount out with him is frustrating. We contributed 2M and exquisite condition to Chien-Ming Wang Charities, Inc. and you’d hope we could get a tax break for our contribution to this nonprofit doing great things for baseball development and fan visits from China. Plus he could join Yi Jianlian as mediocre players hyped in China occuping rotation spots in DC and do joint marketing events to cross market! And like Yi, he’s probably more Miguel Batista and less a starter. But I’d like to see him come back.
7) Webb’s intriguing. You hope if the price is right he’ll go with the Nats if they match the offer with the Rizzo connection and Rizzo likely loyalty and rotation openings. We’ll let him struggle in our rotation longer than some of the other Webb candidates will and that should be worth something to him.
8) Francis, Penny, Millwood, meh. I’ll pass and wait to see what Mock and Detwiler can do at cheaper cost.
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Nice Job Guys. One of the better Fanposts and Responses that I’ve seen on here. Drummer, I fully agree…..Mock and Detwiler any day of the week over Francis, Penny and Millwood. I too would like to see Wang, Webb, and one that I don’t recall seeing in the post (Chris Young), considered.
Believe Chris Young is getting significant interest from the Mets. What say you about Mr. Young?
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According To Baseball Reference.....
Young is compared to Ubaldo Jimenez, Erik Bedard, Mark Prior, Matt Garza, Daisuke Matsuzaka, and Chad Billingsley. Yeah, Rich Harden is also on that list, so…….
However, just like Webb, if he can get back to his pre-injury form, he would be a very nice addition to the rotation. He did look good in his 4 starts for the Padres in 2010. The drawback, is his medical history….can he stay healthy? He has had three stints on the 60 Day DL, two of which were related to his right shoulder. Chris is probably the biggest risk out of those returning from injury.
Thanks for the subtle surfacing hint, SD.
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Dec 16, 2010 1:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yet again I don't know if you're funnin' me or this is legitimate positive feedback
In souldrummer’s desire to believe the greatness of souldrummer, souldrummer will choose to believe the latter.
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Carl Pavano is the next domino to fall.
Is he waiting for one of the higher profile trades to happen, trying to find peace with the Twins, or hoping to wait teams out into a three year deal? Who is going to give him 3 years?
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nobody is going to pay what he's asking
except maybe a desperate contending team, but I don’t see anyone being all that desparate yet. I expect to see him sign for 2 years with possibly a 3rd year option. The Yankees are still waiting on Pettite to make up his mind, but they might be willing to pay up if that doesn’t pan out.
Do not want Pavano
Let’s hope that domino falls in Milwaukee.
"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture
This just makes me sad
because I keep going back to the rotation the Nats should have had this year. If things work out with Strasburg and Zimmermann 2012 could be a pretty sweet year to be a Nats fan. Hell, Harper could even be ready to add offensive punch by then.
I have a friend who loves Greinke
is willing to trade whatever it takes to get him.
There are many people who go to ball games on the basis of star power. I posit that Greinke would fill twice the seats of any other aquisition we could or are likely to make.
I just don't buy it
I’m sorry. I know everyone loves Zmann, but if you can give up a guy who is AT BEST a #2 and is right now a #3 on a good team, and get a legit #1 starter…you do it. It always comes back to TINSTAAPP. Grienke is a proven MLB ace, Zmann isn’t and never will be. If you could get ZG w/o giving him up that would be fantastic, but I would pull the trigger on an Espy/Zmann/C prospect deal.
+1
Repeat after me: TINSTAAPP, TINSTAAPP, TINSTAAPP or google Todd VanPopple, Mark Prior etc., etc.
"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture
I think that’s excessive to say that there’s no such thing as a pitching prospect. I think that there’s greater variability in pitching prospects. I think the flip side of that may be that if you can find one that’s home grown and cheap like Zimmermann that gives you a major advantage in payroll flexibility because they are so rare.
I don’t think we know what Zimmermann will be but I think we can safely say that he seems to be trending towards 4th starter floor and second starter ceiling.
I think the challenge right now is that until the next Nats move is made, we are getting mixed messages. There’s the frustration for the “go young” fans because Werth was such an overpay. There’s a frustration for the “go now” fans because Dunn was let go, he could have helped us now, and we have a chasm at first base for the forseeable future.
There’s time in the offseason for all of these things to shake out and I’m just glad that we have volume.
TINSTAAPP = There is such a thing as a John Patterson, Sean Hill, or Jason Bergamann. Those are probably the names that make us shudder more around here.
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Cognitive dissonance
If you throw around terms like “TINSTAAPP”, implying that nobody can tell when a player is going to be good, then you probably shouldn’t be saying things like “…and never will be”, as if to say one can tell if a player is not.
I personally think a JZ/ZG trade straight up would be OK for both teams. But I believe it because I think that JZ very possibly could be a top-line starter one day. Baseball Prospectus estimates his likelihood of reaching “superstar” status for the next 6 years at around 15%. That’s a far cry from “never will be”.
Rob
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -- Rogers Hornsby
You seem to think “good” and “great” are the same thing. They aren’t.
Zmann is good, maybe he’ll be great, maybe not. ZG is ALREADY great. If you can convince KC to trade a proven #1 for a guy who barely, yes 15% is barely, has even that CEILING of talent, you’d already be a MLB GM. That would just be a horrendous trade for the Royals.
How about this, you give me $75 and I’ll give you a $20 a $10 and a $5. Maybe you CAN turn that $35 into $75, good on you. I’ll take the guaranteed money.
Why would the Royals do it...?
Well, two reasons, actually. First, Zimmnn is under control for three more years than ZG. Second, he’s MUCH cheaper than Greinke. The Royals have different payroll concerns than the Nationals; they cannot really afford to invest such a large percentage of their total payroll on one player.
BP’s projection of ZG has him in “superstar” status at an average of around 28% over the next 5 years. (While JZ’s projection is roughly flat, ZG’s steadily diminishes during the time frame from ~35% to ~20%.)
Let’s say these projections hold water. Zimmermann’s projected for approximately .75 “superstar years” over the next five seasons. Greinke is projected for approximately .70 superstar years over the next two. This doesn’t make Zimmnn better, but it does provide a cheap, long-term solution to the Royals for their #1 starter.
Rob
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -- Rogers Hornsby
and, no, I don't confuse "good" and "great"
For example, I used the term “superstar”, you’ll note.
Rob
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -- Rogers Hornsby
RobBob is loyal to his guys and has impressive evidence to defend them.
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Some of the best evidence that I’ve seen on blog sites. His opinions, even when I don’t agree (which is rare), are highly respected.
Of course, the converse of that is once he expends a lot of energy to form one of these opinions it is often rather difficult to change his mind. I often chuckle when some of the newbs find that out the hard way.
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Yes, I am a stick-in-the-mud
Not totally inflexible though. I did kindof warm to Livan a bit as the year went on. A bit.
Rob
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -- Rogers Hornsby
I'm not saying they WILL,
I’m just arguing why it would make sense to do so.
Rob
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -- Rogers Hornsby
I understand your point about trading a #2 for a #1
Yeah…. that’s a win every time in a vacuum. It’s not a vacuum. First off, by trading for Zack Greinke (and requiring Jordan Zimmermann to make that trade), here’s the 2011 rotation as it stands, inputting basic slotting numbers which I’m sure some may disagree with:
1) Zack Greinke (#1 or Ace, if you prefer [I consider an ace a top ten starter in all of baseball, which Greinke is probably on the borderline of being….. a #1 would be a top 30)
2) John Lannan (#4/#5)
3) Livan Hernandez (#5)
4) Jason Marquis (#5)
5) Maya/Martin/Mock/A healthy Chien Ming Wang (?)/Martis/Detwiler (#5/AAAA)
Even adding Strasburg to that group in Marquis’ place (as his contract will expire after this season… I believe Livan’s a one year deal as well) in 2012, that would still make it a couple of aces and a bunch of #5 starters, which means that we’ll be recalling the Spahn and Sain and Pray for Rain days of the Cubs…. Yeah, maybe Meyers, Millone, or even a fast-moving Solis change up the #5 situation, but hey…. there’s no such thing as a pitching prospect, right?
The other obvious vacuum situations need less explanation, though One is the financial issue, where you’re giving up four cheap years of club control in Jordan Zimmermann for two expensive years and no assurance that you can re-sign Greinke beyond 2012. More notably, though, the Royals aren’t going to accept a J-Zimm for Greinke deal straight up, and would likely require the likes of Norris, Desmond, or Espinosa to get a deal done with him. The likelihood is that you’re costing yourself about as many runs with the position player as you’re saving by upgrading J-Zimm to Greinke, and you’re still gonna have that crappy back end of the rotation.
Would I rather have Greinke than Jordan Zimmermann straight up, given no other factors involved? Sure. That’s simply not the case, though.
by bluelineswinger on Dec 17, 2010 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You're undervaluing Greinke
In all honesty, acquiring Greinke (which they’d almost certainly have to move J-Zimm to do) wouldn’t be a complete step backwards, but it wouldn’t be a full step forward either because of what they’d have to give up.
To say that Zack Greinke is good is an understatement. I get that everyone seems to love Zimmermann and that he’s under team control for the next 5 years, but Greinke is one of the top 5 pitchers in all of baseball. If you look at Fangraphs WAR (fWAR) over the last 3 years for all pitchers in baseball it ranks out like this:
1. Halladay – 21.5 WAR
2. Lee – 20.9 WAR
3. Lincecum – 20.8 WAR
4. Greinke – 20.8 WAR
5. Sabathia – 19.6 WAR
The top 4 pitchers are separated by less than 1 WAR and Lincecum and Greinke are the only two under 30. Point being, Greinke isn’t good, he’s great, like HOF great. If Zimmermann were to fully reach his potential and hit his ceiling, he’ll still won’t be as good as Greinke.
The other thing is that winning teams are not built on good cost-controlled SS’s and 2B like Desmond and Espinosa, they’re built on starting pitching. Look at the Phillies, did they make it to the NLCS based on their offense, sure in part, but their batters ranked #13th in the MLB in WAR, just behind the Padres. However, their pitching staff ranked 7th in the MLB in WAR for pitchers and that’s including their suspect bullpen and 5th starter(s). In fact, looking at pitching stats reveals a lot about what it takes to win.
Looking at the ERA leaders in the NL by team:
1. Giants – 3.36
2. Padres – 3.41
3. Braves – 3.57
4. Cardinals – 3.57
5. Phillies – 3.68
Three of those teams reached the playoffs, one missed by one game and the other finished 10 games above .500. Point being, good teams usually have good pitching, what’s more is that they usually have good starting pitching.
While Greinke would be a two year rental, in today’s MLB with FA and short-term contracts rampant, any team can turn it around within one year and go from worst to first, if they make the right moves. What’s more, is that Greinke will help increase revenue for the Nationals because he’s a star and will consequently put more butts in the seats and if the deal gets done the Nationals would have two years to sign him to a long-term deal.
All that being said, I like Matt Garza too, and think that if the Rays want relievers and Royals want middle-infielders/catchers the Nats should make both deals, but I’d be happy to see at least one of them get done.
"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture
that's kind of misleading
Let’s look at the leaders in WAR over the past 2 rather than 3 years:
1. Greinke – 14.7 WAR
2. Verlander – 14.6 WAR
3. Halladay – 14.0 WAR
4. Lee – 13.6 WAR
5. Lincecum – 13.3 WAR
Mariners and 2005-2008 War
Mariners started the season with 2) Cliff Lee and 9) Felix Hernandez (Using the last 3 years WAR from Fangraphs) and they loss more games than the Nats. Teams need other players to win.
I ran the fangraph War for pitcher from 2005-2008.
Brandon Webb was 1 with 25.2 and Cliff Lee was 22 with 13.9.
Some guys that finished before Cliff Lee include:
8. Javier Vazquez 18.4
15 Mark Buehrle 16.4
16 A.J. Burnett 16.4.
19.Scott Kazmir 14.9
Just something to keep in mind when trading away lots of young players for short term use of a hot player.
Of the teams you mention.........
Tim Lincecum
Matt Cain
Jonathan Sanchez
Madison Bumgarner
Brian Wilson
Sergio Romo
Matt Latos
Clayton Richard
Wade LeBlanc
Luke Gregerson
Heath Bell
Joe Thatcher
Edward Mujica
Tommy Hanson
Jair Jurrjens
Jonny Venters
Mike Dunn
Craig Kimbrel
Jaime Garcia
Adam Wainwright
Kyle McClellan
Jason Motte
Cole Hamels
Most of the players above are either:
a) Homegrown talent
b) Players who were acquired as …. oh wait… there is no such thing
c) Still making far less than they would be on the free agent market
All of them played key roles in leading their team to that top five finish in ERA in the NL. Yeah… some of them (most notably Bell, Lincecum, Cain, Wainwright, and Hamels) are getting expensive at this point,
The Nats have precisely one (healthy) starting pitcher who would have even had a shot at cracking any of those rotations (ok… with the injuries to Lohse and Penny in St. Louis, maybe Livo could have made it, too). If they trade Jordan Zimmermann, they’ll still have exactly one pitcher who would even have a shot at cracking those rotations….. he’ll be better, yeah. My point is that the Nats have no pitching depth, and adding an ace in place of the guy who is your best pitcher just doesn’t make sense considering the stage of development the ballclub is in. Particularly not when you can probably add another pitcher who is really good (but not as good as Greinke) without trading said only good starter………….. and creating some depth.
by bluelineswinger on Dec 17, 2010 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What Happened to Garrett Atkins?
He looked like a promising player, but the past two seasons, he has been atrocious. Just wondering, because I think he is available, and until the past two years, he hit for a decent average and had a little pop as well….but Coors Field may have played into that a little.
Groan, gasp...
Please, no more SlumpGrass here!
heh
(BTW someone signed Wil Nieves for next year. Now that’s desperate.)
"Baseball is a game played by the dexterous but only understood by the POIN-dexterous."
Professor Frink (from MoneyBart Episode )
by MissB on Dec 17, 2010 4:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
someone being the Brewers
where Nieves gets to compete for the backup job
backing up one Jonathan Lucroy who put up a .253/.300/.329 line in 75 games last year as a rookie.
We got a second chance at Kearns?
He’s a former Yankee! He knows how to win! BRING BACK KEARNS! BRING BACK KEARNS!
"And everybody lived happily ever after. Except the Phillies and the Mets. The End." --Sasskuash
Friend of Dukes and Desmond #3
from Orioles MLB.com beat writer Brittany Ghiroli
It appears Lee is the #Nationals top target. Bodes well for #Orioles pursuit of LaRoche…
Unless Moore/Marrero is going to be ready in a year or Nortis is making a switch, I don't like this.
I like LaRoche’s bat and am afraid Lee will be Pudge 2.0, an over paid and formally great player who is now just a hole in the lineup.
by The Herndon Kid on Dec 17, 2010 7:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sentimental
Call me sentimental……….I like John Maine because he’s a local guy………
Excellent rollup on the starter options
I agree I think Garza and a flyer on Webb are a good course of action. Grienke would be great but again the Nats need to build starting pitching and not trade away the piece that seems ready for a breakout season in 2011 or 2012…
"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis
Garza having three years left instead of Greinke’s two is also a big, big factor to me. For me, our window is until Zimmerman’s contract ends in 2013.
The wait for 10/7 begins. This man is focused. Are you?
by souldrummer on Dec 18, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
No point in Greinke unless he agrees to extend
Otherwise, “thanks no thanks”
Rob
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -- Rogers Hornsby
Yeah, if you're going to sacrifice offense, it needs to be about controllable young pitchers
I really don’t think Zimmermann is going to get moved. He should know his value enough to hold onto him. I think we disagree about just how good Zimmermann will be, but I want to see just how good he will be and I think by 2012 he’s going to very good to great.
The wait for 10/7 begins. This man is focused. Are you?
by souldrummer on Dec 18, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions

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