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Around SBN: FSU To Big 12 'Inevitable,' According To Report

Reasons for Hope - #10 Ross Detwiler

The Nationals shocked everyone when they signed Jayson Werth to a katrillion dollar contract for the rest of his life and the lives of his children. But they didn't appear to be done as they were rumored to be in the running to both sign Cliff Lee and deal for Zack Greinke. At the time, it seemed like they were going to spend money either like a bunch of drunken sailors or like a bunch of sober politicians and were ready to contend this year. Then Cliff Lee decided the mullets in Philadelphia reminded him of the mullets in Arkansas--ditto the acid-washed jean jackets--and Zack Greinke decided he didn't want to play in the baseball hotbed of Washington D.C. under the intense scrutiny of an over-zealous baseball media. So Rizzo shifted gears and turned his attention to the reclamation project that is Brandon Webb, but Webb was mesmerized by the coffee table books in the his current doctor's office and decided to go to the team who employs his doctor as the team doctor so he could keep reading those awesome coffee table books. 

Sprinkled in there, the Nationals signed Chien-Mien Wang to another incentive-laden deal, dealt Josh Willingham for a bag of balls and a new pitching machine (at the time seemingly to clear space for another deal), signed Rick Ankiel to play somewhere, but still haven't signed a Deradam LeeRoche to play 1B. 

What started out as a promising off-season has left Nationals fans feeling like high-school kids throwing their first kegger. They had high hopes going in, secured the keg (Werth), but then no one showed up. However, there's still reason for the Federal Faithful to take hope that your friend's older sister will come through and bring all of her friends to the party once they finish their respective shifts down at the local Hooters. 

Up first on the countdown of reasons for hope, Ross Detwiler

Detwiler, as you may recall, was part of LOLBowden's plans to rebuild the Nationals farm system by drafting pitchers and dealing for hitters. A good plan on the surface, but one that does require a team to draft good pitchers, or in the case of Aaron Crow, pitchers you can actually sign. Somewhere amidst all of his drunken bafoonery Bowden selected Ross Detwiler (for the purposes of hope we'll ask that you look past the fact that he passed on the other left hander available, Madison Bumgarner) in the 2007 draft. 

Detwiler has good stuff, including a fastball that tops out in the mid to high 90's, but typically sits around 93, a curveball that depending on who you talk to is either 12-6 or 1-7 and a plus changeup. Up until this point Detwiler's biggest problem has been the consistency of his delivery. He's tall at 6'5", but is also very lanky which provides a knees and elbows look to his delivery. However, his height could be holding him back, at least for now. Everyone is of course familiar with Randy Johnson's struggles to find the plate before becoming one of the dominant pitchers in the game on his way to 300 victories and most likely a first ballot induction into the HOF, however, Detwiler may be able to look to another member of the 2007 draft class for hope. 

The aforementioned, Bumgarner, entered last season hoping to make the Giants starting rotation out of spring training, but a mechanical flaw in his delivery saw his velocity dip from the low to mid 90's down in to the high 80's. Bumgarner was sent to the minors to work on his mechanics where he fixed the flaw and was able to dominate down the stretch for the Giants, even making three postseason starts and one very clutch relief appearance. Like Detwiler, Bumgarner is a tall and lanky left-hander and it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that similar resurgence is possible for a pitcher taken 4 slots ahead of Bumgarner in the 2007 draft. 

The other reason for hope with Detwiler is that last year in his 5 starts and 3 relief appearances with Washington he had a tough time finding the strike zone, posting a BB/9 of 4.25, however, in his 10 minor league starts last year after returning from injury he posted an anemic 1.88 BB/9. Granted, both are relatively small sample sizes, but it's a reason for hope not necessarily a case for what will happen. 

Lastly, Detwiler has also seen a significant dip in the number of K's he's posted between the minor leagues and his brief stints with the big club. In his minor league career he's posted a K/9 rate of 8.15, while posting a K/9 of just 5.17 in the majors. Most young pitchers will see a regression in their strike out totals when making the jump from the minors to the majors, but losing roughly 3 SO's per 9 innings is something I would expect to pull closer to his minor league average as the sample size increases, but also as he makes fewer relief appearances. 

Detwiler has been expected to make the leap from prospect to big leaguer for several years now and has been ranked as high as second on Baseball America's organizational prospect rankings, but will this finally be the year he bursts on to the scene and realizes his potential? Who knows, but we can all hope he does. 

Comment 37 comments  |  4 recs  | 

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I apologize for the role I played as part of the overzealous media...

In keeping Greinke away from D.C.

Good stuff Pig.Pen.

I believe in Ross Detwiler. (and for reasons of body type alone, get the Randy comparison.)

Deradam LeeRoche, heh…

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Dec 29, 2010 2:26 PM EST reply actions  

Forgiven

Glad someone got the Deradam LeeRoche joke, figured most people would think it was a spelling error.

Watching some video of Detwiler I really like his stuff and think if he can ever get a consistent delivery down, or even just a consistent arm slot and release point he could be very, very good. Even with all the negatives I would put his ceiling higher than that of Zimmermann’s, althought I’d say he’s less likely to reach that ceiling.

"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture

by Pig.Pen on Dec 29, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Man….before the beginning of last season, I thought that Stras, Zimm’nn, Detwiler, and Stammen, would become the most fearsome rotation in MLB history! That was, however, before the Phillies put together their own version of the Pitching Dream Team. Now we are down to wondering about all four! Nice article. I really like “DetCord” Detwiler, and look forward to seeing him dominate opposing hitters!

by sullyzz on Dec 29, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

And don’t worry about the Phillies, while I was typing this they just got older and regressed a little more. Not to mention does any team ever live up to the hype? So the more hype they get the better.

"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture

by Pig.Pen on Dec 29, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

They've messed with Det's delivery too, tried to get him to stop throwing across his body...

But he didn’t like the results and went back to “his” delivery and all kinds of issues have followed, including the hip problems last year.

Those lanky lefties always take a while to get it together. I was hoping the Nats would take a chance on Andrew Miller too, who seems a lot like Det to me.

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Dec 29, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Some lefties who throw across their body have a little hitch that almost acts like whiplash in their delivery that allows them to really increase their velocity. I don’t see it in Det’s delivery, but could be wrong. Still even if he throws across his body it’s all about finding a delivery that puts him in the same arm slot, which will help him find the same release point consistently.

"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture

by Pig.Pen on Dec 29, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec'd

Loved the kegger simile! Detwiler should certainly get a shot at the back end of the rotation or in Syracuse as a starter-in-waiting. His upside is certainly higher than most of the AAAA crowd there (Martin, Atwiler, Mairtis, Chico, etc)

by d_c_guy on Dec 29, 2010 3:25 PM EST reply actions  

Rec'd as well

At this point, I’m not a big Detwiler believer, but I’m often the cold water guy on some of the prospects to try to keep us from overvaluing hometown guys. Glad you’re able to see some hope for him, and at least he’s a reason while I’ll be much more intrigued in what’s going on at Syracuse.

John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.

by souldrummer on Dec 29, 2010 5:41 PM EST reply actions  

I want to have hope for Ross

But I am struggling to. He looked so bad last year. But then again, Lannan went from cover-you-eyes awful to solid in the span of one season, so maybe I am too pessimistic.

by The Herndon Kid on Dec 30, 2010 11:11 PM EST reply actions  

Dont forget

with a solid ST he could be the fifth starter instead of Maya. Its down to him, Maya, Martin, Martis, Wang(?) for the fifth starter spot

by jeff550 on Jan 1, 2011 1:25 PM EST reply actions  

I think two of those guys could find their way in to the rotation

Given the way that Marquis pitched last year, and the rest of his career, save one good year for that matter, I could see him as a being moved to the pen, or even DFA’d, not to mention that I don’t think Lanan really has his spot locked down or anything. I think Livo has a spot given the way he pitched last year, and they have to find out what they have in Zimm’nn, but beyond that I’d say it’s wide open.

"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture

by Pig.Pen on Jan 1, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Marquis pitched well when he wasnt pitching hurt

there is no way Marquis will be in the penn. I think LIvo, Lannan, Marquis, and Zimmermann all have a spot in the rotation out of ST. After that it will be results driven, some guys with more of a leash that others

by jeff550 on Jan 2, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

He sometimes pitched well after he came back….he was FAR from consistent.

by sullyzz on Jan 2, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Willingham Trade

You might want to watch the clip of Henry Rodriquez from 8-25-10 (am I allowed to post links here?) before you say that the Nats didn’t get anything for Josh Willingham, unless HE is the pitching machine you were referring to. He appeared to get his control issues worked-out in the Winter League, and if that’s the case, the Nats may have found their closer for the foreseeable future, with Storen, Kimball etc. fighting for the set-up role.
 

by BagsMD on Jan 2, 2011 4:02 PM EST reply actions  

You sure can pitch links here.

Would like to see what you’re talking about.

John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.

by souldrummer on Jan 2, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions  

TINSTAAPP

There Is No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect, and even if Rodriguez does work, relievers have far less value than everyday players. Still would like to see the link.

"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture

by Pig.Pen on Jan 2, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

This guy pitched 4 innings fewer than Jordan Zimmermann last year, and posted a lower ERA than Zimm ever has in his short career. If you think this guy doesn’t have a place on our major league roster, please explain why you think Zimmermann shouldn’t be given a starting job.

by dc Roach on Jan 2, 2011 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Comparing someone who has worked entirely as a starter and someone who has worked entirely as a reliever

is like comparing apples and oranges.

A reliever HAS to put up significantly better numbers than an average SP to be worth anything—-hes pitching for so few innings compared to an SP.

A 4.20 ERA reliever is a dime a dozen, a 4.20 ERA SP is above average and not that easy to find.

by Blicks on Jan 2, 2011 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Would you mind explaining what you mean by this "TINSTAAPP" phrase...?

Blanket statements like this just confuse and sadden me.

Unless you have a very different definition of the word “prospect” than I do, I think the notion is crazy. To me, the word “prospect” in this context refers to someone who is likely to succeed at the Major League level, but hasn’t yet done so. Stephen Strasburg was a pitching prospect, for otherwise Mike Rizzo would be universally decried as a madman for signing him to a 14 million dollar contract. Sammy Solis is likely to succeed at the ML level. How can he not be considered a “prospect”?

Rob

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -- Rogers Hornsby

by RobBobS on Jan 3, 2011 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

TINSTAAPP

TINSTAAPP is a common phrase used by tons of baseball people like KLaw, Rob Neyer, Sickels etc. to describe the extreme volatility of pitching prospects because pitching prospects face a number of very likely obstacles that hitters don’t face, mainly injuries related to their elbows and shoulders, along with the loss of control for inexplicable reasons. It is a blanket statement, but one that works because it applies to every single pitching prospect out there regardless of projection and alludes to the fact that you cannot project pitching prospects with any real accuracy over tiem. So saying that someone is likely to succeed at the next level is inaccurate, because they’re only likely to succeed if their arm doesn’t fall off, they don’t lose their release point, don’t start tipping pitches etc. etc.

Obviously, this doesn’t mean that pitching prospects don’t have value or that none of them will succeed, but rather that even a “can’t miss” prospect like Strasburg could go the way of Mark Prior. Or a “can’t miss” prospect like Rick Ankiel can lose all semblance of control and the ability to throw strikes. This stuff just doesn’t happen to hitters and consequently makes them much easier to project.

If you’re still interested, here’s a few links that delve into TINSTAAPP.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2197
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post//id/6702/just-another-tinstaapp-lesson
blank">http://joeposnanski.si.com/2010/08/24/all-too-familiar/?xid=cnnbin&hpt=Sbin

"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture

by Pig.Pen on Jan 3, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Pithy, and not accurate

I think that spells it out nicely.

Yes, pitching prospects are more likely than player prospects to get hurt. In the end, pitching prospects are less likely as a whole to make it to the Majors (which is one reason why the majority of players drafted are pitchers). Fair enough. But to dismiss prospects as non-existent is a gross over-statement for guys that claim to want to work on a solid statistical foundation.

Rob

"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard

by RobBobS on Jan 3, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

They're not non-existent.

It’s not dismissing them as non-existent, but properly factoring in the variable risks associated with pitching prospects. You’re right more pitching prospects are drafted because it’s much more of an inexact science. Just look at Neyer’s recent article about pitching prospects as they pertain to the BA Top 100 and how they’ve faired compared to hitters, it’s not even close.

I would suggest that to pretend that pitching prospects hold anywhere near close to equal footing with hitting prospects is a much greater over-statement than TINSTAAPP. TINSTAAPP is just a way of alluding to the fact that pitching prospects are a crap-shoot.

"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture

by Pig.Pen on Jan 3, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, then why not just say

“PPAACS”?

Rob

"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard

by RobBobS on Jan 3, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Because

I didn’t come up with the acronym, Joe Sheehan at Baseball Prospectus did and if I, or anyone else for that matter, just started using randomly made up on their own acronyms then no one would know what we were talking about. The article I linked up above probably explains it much better than I did anyway.

"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture

by Pig.Pen on Jan 3, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but

it’s a bad acronym. No use keeping around a pair of stinking sneakers just because everyone recognizes the smell.

Rob

"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard

by RobBobS on Jan 3, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Because...

There is no such thing as a perfect acronym for a generic statement about pitching prospects.

"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture

by Pig.Pen on Jan 3, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

TINSTAAPAFAGSAPP!

I like it.

Rob

"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard

by RobBobS on Jan 3, 2011 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's Another TINSTAAP Article....

By Rob Nyer…..Enjoy

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/6702/just-another-tinstaapp-lesson

"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values

by sullyzz on Jan 3, 2011 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Good article. I’d be interested in comparing top pitching systems to future top pitching staffs. Are there organizations that amass enough quanitity and depth to better handle the process?

Of course, another conclusion from that article could be that there’s no such thing as a Baseball America pitching prospect, and for that Tom Milone smiles with great glee.

John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.

by souldrummer on Jan 3, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Man, Huzzard’s making an impact. He’s vaulted into sig status!

John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.

by souldrummer on Jan 3, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, true enough

My point is simply that while neither of these guys has yet to prove themselves as regulars, they both have what major league experience and though we don’t know who’s going to end up the star, neither of them should be dumped in the “prospect” bin anymore.

by dc Roach on Jan 2, 2011 10:13 PM EST reply actions  

Sorry

But I still disagree. Neither has put together a full major league season yet, so to me they’re both prospects. Lots of guys have had as much major league experience as the two of them have, and as mentioned above Zimm’nn is a starter—a much rarer commodity—and Rodriguez is a reliever. Hitting 100 or 103 on a gun is certainly impressive, but it’s still unrealized potential until he can find the strike zone with regularity.

"I throw as hard as I can when I think I have to throw as hard as I can." - Walter Johnson
*Formerly known as Giant Torture

by Pig.Pen on Jan 3, 2011 8:55 AM EST up reply actions  

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