What We Learned From the Cliff Lee Deal
Much of the discussion around Federal Baseball continues to be about whether or not the Nats should be sellers as we approach the non-waiver deadline. It's been made clear with one of my recent posts that there certainly isn't a consensus on whether the club should sell or stand pat, particularly regarding big #44. My stance is known, and it is (of course) that the Nats absolutely have to see what they could get in return for Adam Dunn to make them a more competitive team heading into 2011 and hopefully contend by 2012.
As of the All Star Break, there has really only been one such deal around the league that illustrates what some of the contenders might be willing to give up to take a run at postseason glory this year. There are very few similarities between Cliff Lee and Adam Dunn, but there are certainly a few that we'll have to take a look at.
- Both Lee and Dunn have contracts that will expire at year's end.
- Both Lee and Dunn figure to be Type A Free Agents that have earned enough of a raise so that they'll reject arbitration.
- Given the surprising Padres' place in the standings, both figure to be the best players who could become available at their position and among players with their particular skill set. *
* Dunn certainly isn't the caliber of an Adrian Gonzalez (whose team remains in first place) or a Prince Fielder (who the Brewers don't appear to be willing to move) in terms of trade value. Neither are on the market.
No.... I'm not completely crazy. Cliff Lee clearly had more value on the open market than Dunn does, despite the fact that he'll take the ball just once every five days for the Rangers. He's having a Cy Young caliber season to this point, and a historical one at that. Lee (a former Expos farmhand, mind you) has amassed an unthinkable 91:6 strikeout to walk ratio in 112+ innings. That's a 15.16:1 strikeout to walk ratio. The all-time single season record belongs to Brett Saberhagen (11:1 in 1994), and only two players in the history of the league have had a season with a ratio of better than 10:1 (Jim Whitney in 1884, if you're keeping track at home!). Even a skeptic would probably have to consider Lee one of the top five pitchers on the planet right now. As much as I like Dunn, the same can not be said of him at first base. He is, however, probably the top power bat who is available.
Still, while the return wouldn't likely be as good as what the Mariners got for Lee, it's a good blueprint to start from...
Lee was dealt along with reliever Mark Lowe and cash to the Texas Rangers for the following:
Justin Smoak - The 11th overall pick in the 2008 draft (you remember... the Nats took Aaron Crow two picks earlier), Smoak signed early enough that season so that he was able to put a few weeks in at A ball. A college first baseman, he progressed quickly through Texas' system, essentially getting a full season's worth of playing time between the A, AA, and AAA levels (combined). He hasn't lit the world on fire as a rookie (.206/.311/.346 with 10 doubles and 8 HR in 243 AB), for sure. Still, I've yet to find a publication that had Smoak outside of their Top 25 prospects overall, rating him between 9th and 23rd for the most part. Smoak was your basic A- level prospect. Smoak alone makes the deal worthwhile to the Mariners, as they now have club control over him for the next six seasons.
Blake Beavan - Beavan was not among the Rangers' top five starting pitching prospects. That's less an indictment upon his talent than you would think, though, as the Rangers' farm system is exceptionally deep. John Sickels gave him a C+ grade to begin the season, ranking him sixteenth among Ranger farmhands. His stuff is far from off the charts, but he throws strikes, and he's walked an almost Lee-like 12 batters in 100 AA innings this season. He is repeating the level (at 21), but the former first rounder has shown significant progress. Beavan is currently sporting a 2.78 ERA and a 1.02 WHIP in AA. More likely than not, he's a back-end starter, but sometimes those guys pan out to be a bit more.
Josh Lueke - Lueke is a right-handed reliever who throws extremely hard, and strikes a ton of hitters out. Given that he's 25 and hovering in AA, you have to think that the long-term prospects of him developing into a leverage reliever are shaky. However, he's broken out a bit in 2010, adding a couple of ticks to his fastball and some sharpness on his slider. There's some room for growth, but the Mariners have probably found themselves a decent middle reliever here, if nothing else.
Matthew Lawson - The Mariners probably aren't expecting much, but he's had a nice season down in AA so far in his own right. Though he's got a fine glove at second base, his bat indicates that his most likely future is that of a utility man.
Of the four players, only Smoak has reached the majors at this point. Given that Smoak spent the first three weeks of the season in the minors, he'll be under the Mariners' control for the next six seasons (though the likelihood is that he'll hit arbitration a year early via Super II status). Basically, for Lee (and bullpen depth), the Mariners got a top first base prospect, a guy who figures to be a back-end starter (with middle of the rotation upside), a reliever who will have a shot at breaking camp with them next year, and a probable utility man.
Again, Dunn isn't Cliff Lee. There are some comparisons, as mentioned above, but he's not Cliff Lee. Going from the blueprint established by the Lee deal...
- Dunn is likely worth one B+ level prospect as the primary return
- He could probably net the Nats another C+ level prospect and maybe an organizational depth type as well
The deal also tells us that the Angels are suddenly the team most likely to overpay to keep up with their divisional rivals. The current standings in the AL West show the Rangers leading the division by 4.5 games at 50-38. That same record would currently place them four games out of the wildcard spot. In short, while teams like Tampa Bay and the White Sox could certainly use Dunn's services, Lee getting dealt to Texas is unlikely to change those particular teams' motivation. Neither the Rays nor the White Sox figure to be competing directly with the Rangers. Of course, as both of those teams' leads in their respective races are tenuous (Tampa leads Boston by 3 games for the wildcard, while the White Sox lead the Tigers by .5 games in the AL Central), you'd have to think that they'd each have some interest in adding a bat like Dunn's.
Per Buster Olney, rumors are circulating that Dunn is losing interest in re-signing with the Nats because there's been a lack of urgency to get a long-term deal signed. The longer the Nats continue to sit on their hands with the situation (be it signing him long-term or trading him), the less perceived value he'll have to them. Should the deadline come with no contract and no trade, teams will likely be willing to give far less for his services. The iron's hot. The market has been set. Dunn's recent play has suggested that he's certainly going to be worth the gamble for a team trying to acquire him.
If the Nats want to re-sign him, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. However, locking him up to that deal is something that they need to be urgently pursuing. If they're not going to re-sign Dunn, his trade value is probably never going to be higher at any point than it is within the next week. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. While they hit the jackpot with their gamble to hold Alfonso Soriano and take the draft picks when he signed elsewhere (they used one of those picks to draft Jordan Zimmermann), the chances of doing the same with the Adam Dunn scenario are slightly better than the chances of getting hit by lightning twice in the same spot.
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Great write up
Im keen for the Nats to shop Dunn around and see if they can get a good deal. I think if he was delt it might be painful for a half season – but I think it would be better for the team in the medium and longer term. My comments in the previous post on holding Dunn for picks was more of a contingency – I think the best case would be to trade Dunn for genuine picks, 2nd would be to re-sign Dunn… but even if he left for picks, it might be ok (although I think the risk profile starts to jump).
Ian Desmond is my hero!
I don't expect him to be dealt.
I think Rizzo has confidence that the market for him won’t get unrealistic for resigning Dunn if he doesn’t get the prospects he wants. I also believe Rizzo has immense faith in his own capabilities to draft well and reduce the sting of losing him. And Rizzo repeatedly makes bold and stubborn “painful” assertions that seem to be intended to prepare us for the fact that he won’t move. Hopefully, it will be like last year where there’s something up his sleeve and he’ll surprise us with either a better than expected deal or an affordable extension before the deadline. But I feel that there are fewer teams in the Adam Dunn sweepstakes than there were in the Cliff Lee sweepstakes. Remember there was a bidding war where Montero got released to the press and fooled the rumor mill right before he was dealt to the Rangers.
The comparisons are certainly enlightening. At this point, I’m more interested in the return we could get for all-star winner Matt Capps. He’s certainly shown that he can be a quality set up guy for a contender that overvalues his saves. He handled his big moment well last night and maybe that will help fool someone as well.
Angels and Rays remain my preferred destinations for Dunn, but at this point I’m okay with expecting it not to happen.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park.
I actually heard this morning that Prince Fielder is very much on the market
Aim for the head baby Jesus
There have been on again, off again reports
In truth, there should be every reason for him to be on the market. I’ve seen Corey Hart’s name mentioned more often as someone they’re considering trading this season… and some of the rumors swirling around Hart is that trading him may open up some cash to (guess what) retain Fielder for next season. Milwaukee’s long-term hopes of locking him up long term don’t look good, considering Ryan Howard’s contract and Scott Boras is his agent.
by bluelineswinger on Jul 14, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
What do you mean, Dunn isn't the same caliber as Fielder?
Dunn and Fielder are nearly identical hitters. They are bother apparently very durable. Dunn has 30 runs above replacement this year, compared with 21 for Fielder. Dunn has .8 wins above replacement over Fielder. Dunn’s career OPS+ is 133, Fielder’s is 141. Their fielding at first is roughly equivalent (e.g. Dunn’s RF/9 this year is the same as Fielder’s career mark).
The only real difference between the two is that Dunn is older but has been far more consistent in his career.
Rob
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
—Connie Mack
was going to say the same thing
other than Dunn playing on the OF for most of his career, he and Fielder are pretty much the same player.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jul 14, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree with this: Dunn's likely more affordable too.
He’s a rental this year and likely to be more affordable than Fielder if you want to try to resign him. I think Dunn’s the more attractive piece but he consistently gets underrated. In Rizzo We Trust to make the right call on a heist for prospects or an affordable deal.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park.
by souldrummer on Jul 14, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Did I read somewhere the Nats are in the top 10 in revenue? Well, they can spend the money to keep the worthwhile free agents/good clubhouse guys.
And, the Lerners are the richest owners in all of MLB. So, if this rotation comes together like it could late in 2010 and is a preview of 2011, I think they should start picking up pieces ASAP. Naturally, I think Rizzo won’t give any idiotic Bowden-ish deals, so we have that going for us.
Top ten in profits
Not total revenue.
by The Herndon Kid on Jul 14, 2010 9:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Fielder's next contract will be very interesting
Boras is already out there selling him, but he has two very big knocks against him: he’s fat, and he plays lousy defense. Buster Olney had a couple of quotes yesterday from anonymous sources, and to a man they all said. “Like the bat, but not the body”. Boras fired back at Olney today about publsihing unnamed sources commenting on his player.
Doubt anyone gives Fielder more than 3-years unless he comes into next season in much better shape.
Real interesting.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jul 14, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's Olney's piece on Fielder
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5375447
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jul 14, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting stuff.
Especially the part about Boras being angry at somebody using unnamed sources. Boras is the most frequent unnnamed source in history. (sneezes and says “Jon Heyman” at the same time)
no kidding. hypocrite.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jul 14, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Fielder's next contract will likely be a one year deal
Price agreed upon by the arbitrator.
by bluelineswinger on Jul 14, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Age?
Isn’t Prince Fielder only 26? He is just entering his prime as a hitter, unless he chokes on his 12th cheeseburger.
by The Herndon Kid on Jul 14, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
not only that
But Dunn is clearly a better hitter than Adrian Gonzalez, too. If those guys have higher trade values than Dunn it only further exemplifies why you cant trade him, his worth is, as always, undervalued
Park factor has always dramatically affected Adrian Gonzalez
.262/.365/.440 lifetime in Petco…. not great
.306/.374/.574 lifetime on the road….. pretty stellar
The fact that Gonzalez plays in the toughest park in baseball for a hitter certainly matters. Nobody should have an OPS that’s 134 points higher on the road than it is at home, but Petco has done that to most of the Padres’ team. Again, youth would be on Gonzalez’ side (28). In the case of Gonzalez, who would have another year of arbitration eligibility himself, but actually has a very affordable option year that the Padres (or some other lucky team, were they to deal him) will surely pick up, you’re also looking at a player who wouldn’t simply be a 2-3 month rental.
Finally, unlike Dunn and Fielder, Gonzalez is a proven plus defender.
by bluelineswinger on Jul 14, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course there are park factors
which is why we use adjusted statistics Even adjusting for the pitcher’s haven that Gonzalez plays in, his career OPS+ is only 4 points above Dunn’s. (133 to 137) To say the guy’s aren’t the same caliber is pretty rediculous
Youth is not that much on Adrian’s side, they are only about two years apart, after all.
Also, Gonzalez is not a proven plus fielder. In fact, he has had two negative full UZR seasons, and two positive ones. He is positive again this year, but lets have the year end before we go nuts with Andrian Gonzalez as a fielder.
Again, I'd point to the "prime years"
Generally considered to be from age 27 through age 32-33. Gonzalez is currently 28. Yes. His career OPS+ is 137. In that year and a half since he’s hit those prime years?
2009: 166
2010: 162
Now, of course, Dunn is having a career year in the category as well, and was better than his career average last season:
2009: 144
2010: 154
While Dunn has posted two of his top three seasons in terms of OPS+, he’s still fallen well short of Gonzalez in the category.
I would again repeat that Adrian Gonzalez is signed to an extremely affordable option year for next season ($5.7 million…. or less than Dunn will make the remainder of the 2010 season and less than half of what Dunn figures to make next season as a free agent).
As for the plus fielder, in comparison with Dunn, there’s no question. In terms of UZR, Gonzalez has finished top three in the majors at 1b twice since 2006, and is currently third this season. Dunn has improved his defense enough so that he’s been slightly below average this season.
As for caliber? The caliber of the trade value is what I’m referring to. There’s simply no way that you’re going to convince me that a player who has produced slightly lesser career numbers (and significantly inferior OPS+ production in the recent past), is a lesser defender, two years older, and a free agent at the end of the season has pretty much the same caliber of trade value as the other guy, considering he’s signed through next season at $5.7 million.
If Gonzalez were on the market, every team in baseball would be after him more than they would be after Dunn, and they’d be right to do so.
by bluelineswinger on Jul 14, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
you're reaching
you want to point to what one statistic says in the past season and a half to tell me Gonzalez is clearly the better player? cmon…
Also, if prime lasts until age 33, that means Dunn has a few prime years left as well. I would also point out that I wouldn’t exactly categorize 8 points of OPS+ as ‘well short’
If you want to base your argument on contract and the bit of age Dunn has on Gonzalez fine… but you cant do it by stats, because it dosent work out. Dunn has a higher caeer woba, and slugging percentage than Gonzalez.
And, again, the only reason every team wouldn’t be after Dunn is because hes been severley hurt by the perception that strikeouts= satan and batting average is one of the most important statistics.
also
my only objection is you said they were not in the same caliber in terms of trade value… and if there is that perception out there, it is a false one based on the numbers. Do 5 poins of OPS+ career and 8 this year really qualify as someone being of ‘a different calibur?’ Especially when Dunn has better career numbers in almost every other meaningful category? Cmon now
When one of them is signed next season for $5.7 million
And the other is a free agent who will likely command upwards of $13 million per year on the open market, yes…… That’s a far different caliber of trade value
by bluelineswinger on Jul 14, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
thats fine,
as I said, just dont try to argue that Gonzalez is statistically the better player, because its unfounded.
And the stat that I cherry picked on
Happened to be one you brought up…. It’s actually a conglomeration of stats that’s based on percentage over the league average and adjusts for park factors. It adjusts for the poor hitter’s parks that Gonzalez has played in and the advantageous hitter’s parks that Dunn has played in over the course of his career. Nats Park has played neutral, but The Great American Ballpark certainly isn’t.
Dunn’s other numbers across the board (predominantly slugging… without the park adjusted factor) look better because the park adjustment has been excluded. The adjusted OPS+ shows this, as Dunn has a higher OBP (.383 to Gonzalez’ .366) and slugging percentage (.524 to Gonzalez’ .509), accounting for a .907 OPS as opposed to Gonzalez’ .875. Yet, when park adjustment factors are included and the numbers are run against the league average, Gonzalez has a 4% edge over the league average compared to Dunn.
So yeah… Dunn’s overall numbers (OBP, Slugging, even wOBA) are certainly going to look better than Gonzalez’. They don’t include park adjusted values. Admittedly, I have neither the time nor the ambition to try and translate everything based on park value between the two, so I won’t continue to argue that Gonzalez is statistically the better player.
by bluelineswinger on Jul 14, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
well, no actually
you cherrypicked sample size, I brought up the stat as a career number. Big difference
The point is that even adjusting for Park factors, Gonzalez has only been marginally better based on OPS+… but OPS+ is not our only park adjusted stat, wRC+, which is runsc created based on Woba, is also park adjusted. Dunn’s career number is 136, Gonzalez’s is 135.
Taken all this into consideration, they are pretty similar hitters, even when looking at adjusted stats. But as I said, the contact issues and age are another matter
I did cherry pick sample size
Which, given the brief tenure that any buyer would be acquiring Dunn for, is certainly a factor. How are they playing recently? Dunn is having a career year. Gonzalez is just off of last year’s career year.
I chose not to bring WAR (where Dunn has averaged 2.72 since his first full big league season and Gonzalez has averaged 4.25 since his first full big league season) into the equation.
by bluelineswinger on Jul 14, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
you shouldnt bring WAR into it
because it dosen’t paint an accurate picture of the two players. Dunn’s WAR is based on his OF play, which is no longer a factor
Dunn is looking for a 3-4 year deal
how does the sample size of a year and a half factor into that? Certainly buyers need to be looking at a bigger sample than just the past year
Not every team looking to acquire Dunn for the stretch run
Will necessarily be looking to him for long-term help. A team that operates on a lower scale payroll, such as Tampa Bay, for example, would probably be more interested in what he’s going to bring them for the next 2-3 months and let him walk for the draft picks he would bring.
by bluelineswinger on Jul 14, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Wouldn’t UZR be kind of pointless for a first basman? there main defensive duty is to save the short stop and third baseman errors on low or wide throws.
by David Huzzard on Jul 14, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Most overrated award in the league right now
But Gonzalez has won the last two NL Gold Gloves at first base. Scooping and saving errors (the eye test, as they say) probably had a lot to do with that, as the writers tend to unjustly reward players’ offensive production for a defensive award, and he hasn’t been better with the bat than Albert Pujols (generally considered a better fielder than Gonzalez).
by bluelineswinger on Jul 14, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
As of this moment
Dunn is outplaying Fielder this year.
Triple slash: .288/.372/.588 for Dunn…. .265/.401/.494 for Fielder
Career: .252/.383/.524 for Dunn…. .281/.383/.544 for Fielder
Still, the most important factor here is their contract status. Dunn is a FA at the end of the season. This offseason will mark Fielder’s final season of arbitration eligibility. Yes…. he’s going to be pricey in that final year of arbitration eligibility, but he’s a year and a half pickup… Dunn is a 2-3 month rental.
Also, like it or not (and I do feel that age is often overrated… and I’m not saying I’m not occasionally guilty of this myself) age is a factor. Not simply because Fielder is four and a half years younger. Considering the point that they’re at in their careers, Dunn (30) is nearing the tail end of what are generally considered a hitter’s prime years. Fielder (26) figures to enter what are generally considered a hitter’s prime years next season.
by bluelineswinger on Jul 14, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Regardless, we're kind of off topic
Certainly never intended for this to become a Dunn vs. Fielder vs. Gonzalez discussion. The whole point was that the Lee trade to Texas should set the market, and (should he decide to trade Dunn) Rizzo has both a better idea of what he could shoot for and a team that might have some greater motivation to overpay for him in Anaheim.
The talk heading into the past weekend was that the Angels might be about ready to throw in the towel. Given that they’d just suffered a four game sweep at the hands of the White Sox and that the Rangers acquired Lee, it seemed reasonable enough. However, combining the facts that the Rangers were swept in four games by the Orioles and the Angels are just 4.5 back, they may be willing to go all in.
by bluelineswinger on Jul 14, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, lots of hair pulling and hand wringing going on over at Talking Chop
Bad deal for Braves, IMO. selling real low on Escobar for no-OBP, fluky power Gonzo. defense is a wash.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jul 14, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
If OBP were important, they'd put it on the scoreboard.
"And everybody lived happily ever after. Except the Phillies and the Mets. The End." --Sasskuash
Friend of Dukes and Desmond #3
Just baffling
Great job by Anthoupolos to sell high on Gonzalez and buy low on Escobar. I have no idea what’s happened to Escobar’s power, but you have to think the Braves are regretting this one down the road (most likely by the end of the year). In what’s been a career year, Gonzalez still has a sub-.300 OBP (.294).
by bluelineswinger on Jul 14, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Horrible trade for the Braves
Why would you trade a potential all-star for a 34 year old career .250 hitter????
Screech's Godson
“…the sense is that Bobby Cox and others in the organization don’t much care for his aura demeanor, effort and the cut of his gib. … he is prone to simply disappearing on both sides of the ball for weeks on end. …. no power, no on base skills and multiple fielding lapses.”
Don't Be A "Crow", Bryce... - P.R., Draft Day 2010
"...eyeblack-oozing baseball cyborg"
by cat daddy3000 on Jul 14, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
One of the Escobar stories Buster Olney told was that Yunel wished a teammate a happy birthday and the teammate said the only present he wanted was for him to play hard.
The other point was…Atlanta is one of the most easy going clubhouses in the game, and if you get bounced out of there, you must be a jackhole.
No on base skills?
His OBP is .030 points higher than Gonzalez! Highway Robbery by the Jays!
Screech's Godson
Heh...
That printed laugh is my sole contribution to this discussion, working on somethink though….
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 14, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
this trade
makes me want to cheer on the Jays, and applaud the new GM. Riccardi would’ve gotten Adam Everett from the Tigers for Gonzolez, where as Anthopolis stole Escobar. I’m impressed.
by Andrew Davidson on Jul 14, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The Lerners may have the greatest net worth
among MLB owners, but a lot of that lies in their properties, doesn’t it? I have reason to believe they haven’t got the deepest pockets in terms of available funds.

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