Wire Taps: The Chicago White Sox' Offer For The Washington Nationals' Adam Dunn...?
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 2:35 AM EDT
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PrintThings went from the abstract to the slightly more concrete (or less abstract?) last night with the publication of Chicago Sun-Times' writer Joe Cowley's article entitled, "Sox have made pitch for Dunn - ball is in Rizzo's court", in which "a major-league source" tells Mr. Cowley that the White Sox' GM Kenny Williams is willing to part with, "...anyone and anything he has in the minor leagues in a package." DC GM Mike Rizzo, however, at least according to Mr. Cowley's source, "...is acting like Dunn is Ryan Howard." (IRWT) The Sun-Times' Mr. Cowley says Sox' prospects Daniel Hudson and Dayan Viciedo would be available, but the Nats' GM: "...is still fixated on getting Gordon Beckham or Carlos Quentin, two players on the current big-league roster that Williams has refused to move."
According to Mr. Cowley, the White Sox have made their offer, and it's up to Mr. Rizzo to decide whether or not the return on the Nats' big middle-of-the-order bat is sufficient. Daniel Hudson, a 23-year-old right-hander taken in the 5th Round of the '08 Draft is (30-13) with 10.6 K/9 in 57 starts and 310.1 over three seasons in the Sox' system, and he was (11-4) with 10.4 K/9 in 17 starts and 93.1 IP at Triple-A Charlotte this year before making a start for Chicago against the Kansas City Royals on July 11th. The top-ranked pitcher (with the Best Control and Best Slider) in the White Sox' organization in Baseball America's Phil Rogers' 1/4/10 Top 10 List and Fangraphs.com's preseason Top Prospect List, in which Fangraphs.com's Marc Hulet describes him as being major-league ready right now...Dayan Viciedo, a 21-year-old infielder, is in the Majors now, and currently hitting .295/.295/.477 in his first 15 games with the White Sox after 192 games over two seasons at Double and Triple-A in the Sox' system in which he put up a .283/.321/.434 line with 34 doubles, 26 HR's and 112 RBI's...
• ?'s For The DC Faithful: How about Beckham and Hudson? And another young prospect thrown in? Is The RZO right in his estimation of Dunn's worth? Do you consider what the Nats' GM is asking for exorbitant? Are you willing to pay Monday's rumored 4-year/$60 million dollar price tag to sign Adam Dunn? 3-years/$36M?
LINKS:
• NATIONALS NEWS NETWORK: Dave Nichols - "Now is the Time to Get Younger and More Athletic"
Dunn is of the age where hulking sluggers start to break down and he's already a defensive liability. Capps is succeeding after two injury-ravaged seasons and every save is a nail-biter. Both players could return Major League-ready players (not lower-level "prospects") from a contending team.
• MASNSports.com's Ben Goessling, "A quick point on Adam Dunn."
"Here's why that price could make an extension untenable, and possibly force the Nationals' hand to trade him: In the final year of that deal, Dunn would have 10-and-5 rights, meaning he'd have to give approval before the team could move him."
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Beckham AND Hudson is far too unrealistic
Hudson and Viciedo plus maybe an organizational depth type on the other hand is probably a top shelf offer, and one that Rizzo would have to strongly consider. That’s a number three starter in 2 years (already big league ready) and a big league ready 1b replacement with upside, both under club control for the next six years. I think that if Williams had gotten this far in an offer, a deal would probably already be done.
I’d love to think they could do better than that, but that’s pretty much the two B/B+ prospects and some depth thrown in. The key is to have scouted well enough so that an organizational depth guy thrown in has enough sleeper potential to possibly contribute down the line
by bluelineswinger on Jul 20, 2010 3:08 AM EDT reply actions
Wasn't too serious about both, but I still say the Nats won't get what they want...
And will end keeping Dunn, even if I agree that a good fair value trade would probably be best. I thought the idea of a $10M dollar player on a 100-loss team wasn’t the best idea before he ever signed…
But I like Dunn….
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Dunn vs. Howard
Dunn: .288/.373/.579
Howard: .298/.356/.538
I guess we are acting like Dunn is Ryan Howard because this year he is.
Dunn is not Howard this year.
He’s better.
Dunn: .403 wOBA, -0.6 UZR, 3.0 WAR
Howard: .379 wOBA, -5.6 UZR, 2.0 WAR
Dunn > Howard. You want him this season? Pay up, suckas.
"And everybody lived happily ever after. Except the Phillies and the Mets. The End." --Sasskuash
Friend of Dukes and Desmond #3
When the team is ready to compete, there will need to be one or two well-paid free agents on the team.
Our farm system is not stacked.
...and much as I'd like that guy to be Adam Dunn, I'm afraid it won't work out.
To step on to the “oldplayerskilzLOL” bandwagon, I can’t see Adam Dunn 2013 being as good as Adam Dunn 2010. I’d love to be proven wrong, but I think it’s unlikely.
"And everybody lived happily ever after. Except the Phillies and the Mets. The End." --Sasskuash
Friend of Dukes and Desmond #3
The Nats must buy a 1B, a RF and a 2B...and maybe a catcher.
Who should they get? We’re back to…will free agents sign on to liveand play in DC for 6 months.
Espinosa
Is tearing the cover off the ball right now and could be looking at a September call-up and possible spring training invite. I could see a scenerio where the middle infield next year is Desmond and Espinosa. Or we can just go through the Orlando Hudson stuff again.
by David Huzzard on Jul 20, 2010 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I have no idea
From what I have heard is that Espinosa is the more steady shortstop while Desmond has the big arm. I am not really sure who wins on range, but I think whoever is the better SS both could survive in the middle infield together.
by David Huzzard on Jul 20, 2010 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Every projection I've read says Desmond shifts to second...
…when Espinosa is ready…
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 9:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed
As to free agents, I font think it would be hard to get people to DC if the money is right. I just don’t think we can expect people who aren’t already on the team to take a siscountti come here.
by The Herndon Kid on Jul 20, 2010 9:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Please no, Rizzo.
I prefer Rizzo’s strategy of making guys play a level at each year except in rare Top 50 cases where they start, continue, and finish playing at a high level that warrants a rare midseason promotion. So much easier to send guys up then to send them back down. About the only guy who seems to be worthy of midseason callups for me are some of the college guys who start lower than they should (see Holder, Trevor sent back down after underwhelming work at Potomac last year) or guys who are genuinely having a breakout year (Justin Bloxom at Hagerstown is the only one who fits in this category for me.
The folks who were yelling for Burgess to be promoted to Harrisburg when he burned through the Carolina League first trip through have run for cover after his later slump.
Appreciate your love for Espinosa, and I hope you’re right that we’re being too conservative with him and he rips through the Eastern League from hear on out and puts pressure on the FO with a hot start in Syracuse next year.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park.
Appears the boys at Fangraphs agree with most of your views....
…except the “Pay up, suckas” part.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park.
Ooooh, I hates me some spammers.
Second one I’ve banned this morning.
"And everybody lived happily ever after. Except the Phillies and the Mets. The End." --Sasskuash
Friend of Dukes and Desmond #3
Spammers want to capitalize on the Dunn rumor bump...
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 9:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And I polled the and they said Dunn > Ed Hardee T-Shirts!!!
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 9:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I want Corey Hart or Jayson Werth for RF. I think both understand the game.
We get to see Hart up close this weekend.
WHo’s going to t-shirt Tuesday next week to see Strasburg and get the grey shirt with script Washington in red. Looks like one of the better shirts.
Thinking I'll spring a 10-day vacation on my boss and...
…and take in the whole homestand…(ahhh dreaming)…
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 10:26 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I love today's Dunn just fine
but we know that tomorrow’s Dunn will likely fizzle. The problem to me is a I have a feeling he will be playing better baseball towards the end of the season than now but will fall off big time way before the end of any contract extension
Especially if it's the rumored 3-4 year deal...
I’d be hesitant too if I was the Rizzo…
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 10:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Dunn is Howard
The numbers say their the same, except Dunn has been more consistant. They are also within a year in age of each other. While the UZR says Dunn is a bit better, it’s hard to use that as the gospel because Dunn’s sample size is still small (and will be until he gets about 3 seasons under his belt). The only way that Dunn is substantially different than Howard is in price.
I think Rizzo has to hold out for either Beckham or Quinten in addition to some of the prospects mentioned. Otherwise, we’re better off keeping and extending him. While the Lerners have the money to attract FA’s, they’ve shown that they are not willing to pay a loser’s premium. Thus, keeping Dunn would add value to the team in the eyes of the Werths, Crawfords, or whoever.
All that said, not trading and losing Dunn to free agency is the worst case scenerio. Even if the picks bring back studs (which is hit or miss), they will be 3-5 years away from producing for the big club. Zim could be gone in 3 years, so we have to make a run at the playoffs before he hits his free agency. Otherwise, he’s tailor-made to replace A-Rod in the Bronx.
if Dunn's extended...
I have no problem with 4/60. If you’re ever going to trade Dunn, this is the year to do it. Demanding a 3 yr deal so you can avoid 10/5 rights seems moot to me because he’ll have much less value as a 34 yr old rental than now. If you give him the 4 yr deal, then you can trade him in the 3rd year of the contract, before the rights kick in, and the team getting him will have control of him for another year at a reasonable price. Also, extending his contract past Zim’s will help convince Zim to re-up (hopefully before his walk year). Maybe Dunn won’t be worth the money in the last year, but he’ll probably be close to worth it and having his bat penciled in the middle of the order for next few years will help convince other hitters to come to DC.
Let's turn the Adam Dunn Bobblehead around...
Rizzo thinks his team of experts can draft better than the next team, eh. So, I think he’s not looking so much at what anyone can give back in a trade as much as is this trade better than who we can draft in the first round and the sandwich pick. The compensation for losing Adam in free agency. Offer arbitration if he excepts you got one more year to figure out who’s on first. If not two picks baby…
That's why he's dangling Dunn to the max for a trade.
He win in all three case.
Case 1 = Lots of usable bodies back in a trade
Case 2 = Adam back after excepting arbitration
Case 3 = 1st round pick and sanwich pick he and his crew pick out…
Rizzo points to his head, again…
Waiting on draft picks is not an option
The team must start winning, and soon, or we’ll lose Zim and Strasburg. Simple as that. Getting extra draft picks won’t help the ‘11 or ’12 teams at all. If you’re gonna deal Dunn, you have to make sure the major league team is better off for it in the short run as well as the long run.
The Plan has run it’s course. It’s time to win.
[points to head]
One of the articles yesterday discussed offering arbitration, I’d never accept if I were done…will find link/quote…
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 11:00 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
done = Dunn...
[points to iPhone]
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 11:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Building a team during the season isn't the way to do it either.
All I’m saying is that in Rizzo mind he has the upperhand.
Kenny Williams is one of the biggest DB's on the planet.
If I were Rizzo I wouldn’t even take his calls.
Patiently waiting for "next year" since 1971.
by Princess Jazzy on Jul 20, 2010 11:15 AM EDT reply actions
But he did vault the Padres into contention...
…with a pitcher who currently resides on their DL. And he still wants to give up the farm for Dunn. If he’s dangling Hudson, we’ve got to make that deal.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park.
Kenny's a classless, loathsome individual. However, if he could give the Nats something
that would help the team, I guess you have to deal with him.
However, I would hate seeing Dunn as a White Sox as much as I hated seeing Thome in that uni. I think Dunn would be miserable there.
Patiently waiting for "next year" since 1971.
by Princess Jazzy on Jul 20, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
He'd be there for all of two months...
…and he’d have to handle it better than he did his Arizona stint because that was part of what hurt his value heading into his Nats contract. Certainly would be a tough gig for him, though. 2 years exceeding expectations and you’re asking him to switch leagues in the middle of his walk year.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park.
That's true, he would have incentive to do really well there.
Patiently waiting for "next year" since 1971.
by Princess Jazzy on Jul 20, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Very Mixed Feelings
Trading Dunn at this point gives us real 100 loss potential again. ARGH. With Dunn the fulcrum of the lineup this team has actually provided watchable moments. OTOH, I do get the “hey, we’re not winning the division and we have holes to fill” argument. IF the return is one of the ML players and Hudson, I’d take that deal.
Best scenario: they trade Dunn for players that they like, then re-sign Dunn as a free agent! Add dreams of glory … LOL
Yeah but asking for Quentin?
That’s a bit incredulous
jtb yl1
by Allen J. Kha on Jul 20, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Dunn
Sorry Rizzo there isn’t any one player in all of MLB worth giving up beckham for. You want Beckham and Hudson ? you will have to start with Dunn and Strasburg and I’ am not to sure Kenny Williams would do it anyway
by southside bartman on Jul 20, 2010 2:09 PM EDT reply actions
heh heh
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jul 20, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
No one seriously thinks the Nats will get Beckham and Hudson, or at least I don't...
…more of a joke about Rizzo not settling… …if he’s going to make a deal…
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
My problem is that I am impatient. I do not want to wait for the compensation draft picks to develop.
So, either trade people now or sign them to extensions.
agreed with Roscoe for the most part
of the three options (trade, re-sign, picks), picks is what I least want to see as an outcome with Dunn.
then, you’re talking about 2014 as the target date, and Zimmerman probably isn’t still on the team.
i was fine with the way they handled Soriano, because I knew how barren the farm system really was at that time, despite the smoke they tried to blow up our skirts (Kory Casto, anyone?).
But there are some real pieces here to work with, delaying things two more years would be a crusher, IMO. if Rizzo doesn’t get what he wants for Dunn, they re-sign him and spend real money to fill the holes next year, moving Bernie to center and buying a RF and 2B.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jul 20, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
And to add to Dave, if this team isn't at least close to the wildcard in 2012, it could get really ugly in NatsTown.
8 years is long enough to improve.
When did everyone decide Zim will leave after 2013?
You’re the 3rd or 4th person to say that in the last few days…
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 4:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
his contract is up after 2013.
if you hadn’t sniffed the playoffs the first 8 years of your career, wouldn’t you pursue other options?
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jul 20, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I always got the play my whole career in one city...
…vibe from Zim. Realized his contract is up then, just was wondering if someone in particular was talking about that since it’s come up repeatedly recently…
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 4:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
nope, just spectulatin'
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jul 20, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
If the Nats are still sub .500 team in 2013, I'd wish Zimm well as he left.
I believe the Nats will be in the playoffs by then and he’ll stay.
Oh, Mr. Needham...
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Jul 20, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Mark Grace wanted to be a Cub for life. That didn't work out for
him and he ended up with a ring. I’ve always wondered whether Grace would trade his WS ring for an opportunity to retire with the Cubs. IMHO Zim reminds me of Grace. I think his first choice would be to stay with his team, but if it doesn’t work out and he leaves and gets a ring, God Bless Him.
Patiently waiting for "next year" since 1971.
by Princess Jazzy on Jul 20, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep, good point.
And thanks for the link. I know that’s where I was reminded about Zim’s contract being up.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park.
This is satire, right?
To quote John McEnroe, you cannot be serious. Not one player? Pujols? Heyward? Pikers, the lot of them! Let’s hang onto our boy Beckham currently batting .241 with 4 HR and an OPS of .638.!
Okay, maybe not satire … probably hyperbole.
Trading Dunn is your best option
Not only do you get young cheap major league ready players but you free up cash you can spend to fill other holes. $10mil will go a long way in free agency these days.
White Sox propaganda makes it's way to FB.
We don’t need to free up cash. We’ve been making money for quite some time. The Hudson plus two package would work for me. But I don’t know all the details. All signs point to them having dumped a truck of money at Cuban Defector Yunesky Maya in a win now move. They may be planning to sign Dunn and a credible 2B option to see how much their club can improve with healthier pitching.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park.
by souldrummer on Jul 20, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Dunn
Trade him. He’s great for hitting home runs, after watching 10 strikeouts with RISP.
Defensive liability.
Put in MORSE at 1B, get the White SOX minor leaguers.
Can't say I'm disagreeing with you but so much.
We’ll see what they do. If the price is right, I can live with Dunn. The Hudson plus secondary offer would work for me. Less than Hudson I don’t know. Viciedo’s K’s scare me although it would continue to make us the team of Cuba.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park.
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