Regardless of How It Plays Out, We'll Know Which Path The Nats Choose By Saturday
It's been made clear throughout the past six weeks since I first posted this article that the readers around Federal Baseball are split on just how much of an effort the Nationals should put into being sellers at the upcoming deadline. Regardless of how you feel about the frequent mention of Adam Dunn, Josh Willingham, and Matt Capps in the media as players who could be traded by Saturday, you have to admit that whatever happens will have a significant impact on the Nationals' future.
GM Mike Rizzo's moves (or non moves, as the case may be) heading into this weekend are going to tell us a handful of different things:
- Choosing not to acquire any young pitching for either Dunn, Willingham, or Capps (or Guzman, etc.) would likely tell us that he feels that the Nats have the pitching in the system (perhaps in the minors, but more likely currently on the disabled list) that's necessary to turn things around. It would mean that he feels confident that Scott Olsen, Chien-Ming Wang, Ross Detwiler, Jordan Zimmermann, John Lannan, Jason Marquis, Yunesky Maya (a name that I just learned has half a dozen different spellings listed), and possibly Livan Hernandez will not only give them enough competition for four starting slots behind Stephen Strasburg, but that he also feels that he can find a #2 (presumably Zimmermann) and a middle of the rotation type starter or two from that group.
- Holding onto Dunn, Willingham, and Capps would tell us that Rizzo believes that the pieces he has in place will be ready to form a contender in the next year or two, contrary to their current performance and their performance in the recent past.
- It would tell us that he feels he can find a free agent second baseman in the offseason to fill the vacancy left by (even a middling performer like) Cristian Guzman... or that he feels that Danny Espinosa is closer to the majors (and more importantly, being a contributor at the big league level) than we think he is.
- It would tell us that the team is ready to not only try to retain their players, but make a bigger splash on the free agent market than they have recently.
At last year's trade deadline, Rizzo's hands were tied a bit. For starters, he didn't necessarily have the sense of urgency to figure out what to do with a pivotal player such as Dunn. Sure.... they had decisions to make about Joe Beimel (dealt to the Rockies for a pair of mid-level prospects) and Nick Johnson (dealt to the Marlins for Aaron Thompson), but neither of them had the impact that a player such as Dunn could have on a contender. He also had the "interim" hanging over his title, and didn't have the full time job.
In one of the (many) Adam Dunn threads at MLB Trade Rumors, a user mentioned that he felt that the Nationals could go one of two ways. His suggestion was that the Nats either completely blow it up or that they stand pat and re-sign Dunn... as well as be active in the free agent market. His final suggestion, greeted with nods from a couple of other posters, was that the middle ground was death. There are some valid points on all three sides of the argument, so we're going to examine them after the jump.
Do Not Trade Adam Dunn, Josh Willingham, or Matt Capps
Some of what has to happen for this scenario to work out has been pointed out above. Still, we'll begin with the rotation again.
- The Nats obviously feel that they have a legitimate young ace in Stephen Strasburg, who is under club control through the 2016 season.
- There are pretty clear indications that the Nats believe that they have a legitimate number two starter in Jordan Zimmermann, though there's certainly significant risk with any player coming back from Tommy John Surgery. Regardless of whether Zimmermann pitches like a top of the rotation guy or not next season, the Nats would likely have to go all in to find someone else of his caliber on the free agent market.
- Is their third starter for next season Ross Detwiler? The talent and the stuff are certainly there for him to develop into one, but he's also proven to be a bit injury prone. He hasn't put forth the results that the club would have hoped for yet either.
- Is it Scott Olsen (entering his final year of arbitration)? Again, the injury question lingers, as he's had two surgeries on his throwing shoulder in the past two years. He also hasn't quite put the results up on a consistent basis, though he was off to a good start this year.
- Is it Chien-Ming Wang (also entering his final year of arbitration)? Umm... I hate to sound like a broken record. The results have been there in the past, but he hasn't pitched in over a year, and the likelihood that he'll pitch in the majors at all in 2010 is getting more and more bleak by the minute. Truth be told, when he last pitched in 2009 for the Yankees, he did so pretty poorly.
- Is it Jason Marquis? Like most of the other members in the above group, Marquis has missed more than three months this season due to injury. Truth be told, there was a lot of reason to question Rizzo's signing of him to a fairly lucrative 2 year, $15 million deal in the first place. He's made three starts with a 20.52 ERA, a 2.88 WHIP, and a 3:6 strikeout to walk ratio in 2010... No, that's not a typo. He's been a consistent league average to slightly below league average pitcher throughout his career (4.57 career ERA, 1.43 WHIP, low strikeout rates, high walk rates, good groundball tendencies, but does that really play well in front of a porous Nats' defense?).
- Is it John Lannan? He gave the Nats a couple of pretty nice years, though the underlying statistics pointed to.... well.... pretty much what happened to him this year. A contending team might be able to get away with him as their fifth starter, but that's about it.
- Is it Yunesky Maya? I don't know. As far as I know, he's yet to throw a pitch in North America that wasn't for the Cuban National Team in the World Baseball Classic. There certainly appears to be a lot of upside (which should be reached quickly) with Maya's signing. Can he be counted on to immediately step in as a middle of the rotation starter in the big leagues, though?
- Is it Mr. National himself, Livan Hernandez? We all love Livo to a certain extent, and we all want to see him do well. His surface numbers this season indicate that it's possible that he could remain strong enough to be a middle of the rotation type of pitcher on a contending team, and.... man... I'm trying hard to avoid using some words. I'm going to use "fortunate" and that his surface numbers are "better than expected" to tiptoe around that issue.
- It's fairly obvious that no members of the following group are really going to be middle of the rotation contributors to a contending team (at least not quickly): J.D. Martin, Shairon Martis, Collin Balester, Craig Stammen, Luis Atilano, Brad Meyers..... or (barring Meyers, who we've yet to see, and who has dealt with injury issues himself this season) the AAAA starters that the Nats have been using for much of the past two years.
Not taking a quality batch of prospects for Dunn, or even a slightly lesser quality batch for Willingham and/or Capps indicates that Mike Rizzo would have to be confident that he can piece together not just a rotation for next season, but one that is significantly better than this year's group. Currently, including performances that were better than expected by Livan Hernandez and Stephen Strasburg (as good as he's been, and as quickly as it's happened), the Nats rank 24th in the league with a 4.47 ERA from their starting pitchers. Is counting on a handful of players who are going to be returning from injury (many of whom don't have a consistent track record of success) really going to correct that? I sincerely doubt it.
If they go this route, they have to look long and hard at taking a serious stab at one of the following starting pitchers on the free agent market: Cliff Lee, Javier Vazquez, Ted Lilly, Jorge de la Rosa, Brett Myers. There are some other decent guns that figure to be free agents at year's end, but a quality veteran starter who could make some noise near the front of the rotation would be a must. Assuming they wouldn't go after Lee (who will be fitted for pinstripes exactly 15 days after the World Series ends), they're still looking at ~ a $10-$12 million dollar investment.
Positionally
- I can understand management's commitment to letting Ian Desmond develop at the big league level, so we'll tentatively say that SS wouldn't be something that they'd have to try and upgrade. First base and third base would be set, too (assuming that they extended Dunn), though there are some other solid 1b options that will be available on the open market that might provide a little less with the bat and more defensively... guys like Derrek Lee, Paul Konerko, Carlos Pena, etc. With Pudge in town for another season, seeking a starting catcher wouldn't have to be a priority. I do think that Pudge is best used in a platoon role at this point, though. $13-15 million for Dunn/Other 1b
- They'd have to spend on one of the big outfielders available on the market. The top two will be Carl Crawford and Jayson Werth. There's a significant dropoff to guys like Johnny Damon, Magglio Ordonez (who won't reach enough plate appearances with his injury for his option next year to vest), or Hideki Matsui. The RF platoon hasn't worked this year; The pieces aren't close to ready to replace that with a regular starter from the minor league system. Crawford is a franchise player. Werth is really good. The rest are good players at this point who are a bit past their prime. $8-10 million for Damon, Maggs, or Matsui.... $15 million for Werth.... $20 million for Crawford, who (like Lee) will be clearly in the Yankees' sights
- Don't fail in the pursuit of a guy like Orlando Hudson again. I'm not saying it would have to be Hudson, necessarily, but the free agent options at second base aren't pretty. Taking an unbiased look (err.... pretending I wasn't a Nats fan and just looking at production/skill set), I'd say that the top two free agent second basemen available on the market are going to be Orlando Hudson and (here's what the disclaimer was for) former Nat Felipe Lopez. Adam Kennedy and Alberto Gonzalez aren't likely to be a 2b platoon on a winning ballclub. Cheaper, but still $5 million or so
Why so heavy? Why am I saying that if the Nats choose not to deal Dunn, Hammer, or Capps that they need to spend upwards of $40-50 million (per year, which would include Dunn) on free agents this offseason? If they don't take a solid prospect package for them (particularly Dunn, whose contract expires at season's end), they're saying they're going all in. If you're going all in, then you can't go halfway.
Deal Them All
Dunn isn't going to get the Nats Gordon Beckham... or Matt Garza... or (probably) Madison Bumgarner (just using names that it's been reported that Rizzo has asked for... whether any of them are true or not we can't say). He would likely net the Nats a cost effective starting prospect who is (or is extremely close to) big league ready with the potential to move towards the middle of the rotation (using the most frequent example on the internet, a guy like Daniel Hudson). He would also likely net the Nats another slightly lesser prospect and/or a handful of guys a notch below that. Yes. They'd be losing that big middle of the order bat. In his place, they'd be fixing a problem in another (presumably less replaceable) area with a long term solution and probably finding another player who could fill one of the other holes on the roster pretty quickly. The key is that the secondary player also has the upside to contribute more down the road than what the Nats have in the system.
There are differences of opinion on what the Nats could get for Josh Willingham. Some feel that the extra year of control (despite a slightly lower caliber, but similar skill set to Dunn) could net the Nats pretty close to what Dunn would as a rental player. Others just see the slightly lower caliber, same skill set and think that he'd come a lot cheaper. The fact of the matter is that they won't get the top player in the deal that they would for Dunn, but a slightly lower caliber top player. They'd still probably fill multiple holes in the lineup/system by dealing Willingham.
Capps is a different case altogether. They have two capable replacement options in Clippard and Storen (Joel Peralta's making himself difficult to ignore as well) should they move him. Like Willingham, Capps has another year of arbitration eligibility remaining. Like Willingham, Capps figures to get a substantial raise next season. There's an excellent chance that Capps asks for (and receives) $6 to $7 million through arbitration. The relief market is pretty dry this season, with Scott Downs and Octavio Dotel being the primary names thrown around. Capps wouldn't be likely to fetch a major return, but the cost of keeping him will likely far outweigh the benefits. He could maybe fetch a starter on the cusp of the high minors with the potential to be better than one of the back end seven (or twelve, if you prefer) that the Nats have now. Maybe he could fetch a future bat at a position of need that's closer to making an impact than the Michael Burgess', Destin Hood's, or Chris Marrero's of the world.
I know Livan has said he wants to retire a National, but wouldn't it be crazy not to sell high on him if a team came calling? We all love Livo (he's Mr. National, after all), but how many of us really think that Livan's in the plans for 2012? Cliff Lee's gone. Dan Haren's gone. If rumors that have come through the pipeline early this morning are true, Roy Oswalt is gone (to Philadelphia). Contending teams are still looking for pitching, and their options are dwindling fast. Like Capps, he wouldn't fetch a big return, but some desperate GM would likely overpay a bit for him.
From experience on this site (in just about every gameday thread I've been in), we'd all love to see the Nats get rid of Cristian Guzman for a bag of baseballs and a batting helmet. Eat the $3 million left on his deal and get a low-mid level pitching prospect for him.
If there's someone who will pay the rest of Willie Harris' (small) salary, let them have him. If not, designate him for assignment. Mike Morse, Roger Bernadina, and Justin Maxwell have nothing left to prove in the minors, and should be getting their reps to see if they can hack it at the big league level (personally, I have my doubts about J-Max, and I'm concerned with what we'll see out of Morse if he gets overexposed, but we don't know because Willie Harris is stealing too much time away from all three of them).
In the true "Deal them all" scenario, you have to consider getting rid of Ivan Rodriguez and Adam Kennedy. Neither are going to be on this team in 2012 or 2013 when they're ready to contend. Pudge could have value as a backup/platoon catcher on a contender. Kennedy.... well.... he's had some success in the past. I couldn't see much of a return for either of them, to be honest.
Basically, if it's not nailed down (signed, sealed, delivered) for 2012, move it and see what you can get.
The Middle Ground
Seriously, I saw the nods and heard the statement from (presumably) outside observers when the middle ground was described as death.... OK... not death, but the acceptance of mediocrity. Part of me agrees. Part of me sees the value in keeping some of the veteran talent around.
I know I'm not alone, and I know I'm certainly not opposed when I say this. The best move for Mike Rizzo and the Washington Nationals absolutely involves them dealing at least Adam Dunn or Josh Willingham and Matt Capps. We all want to see the Lerners show that they're willing to spend to compete, but even those teams with the highest payrolls need some cheap talent to go along with their high priced hired guns. Don't believe me? Brett Gardner currently ranks third among Yankees' hitters with 2.8 WAR. He's making the league minimum. Phil Hughes ranks third among their pitchers with 1.7 WAR. Joba Chamberlain is fifth among their pitchers. Yes..... The Nats should have the money to open up the purse strings a bit more, but having some cheap, cost effective contributors to build around makes that money go a lot further!
I'm not sure I'd say that they should deal both Willingham and Dunn (which I'm fairly certain isn't going to happen), but dealing one of them seems like it would be the prudent move... and the guy who would fetch the most and appears less likely to be around when the Nats are ready to contend is Dunn. That said, even if they deal Dunn, if they can get an above market deal for Willingham, they'd have to consider it.
Shopping Livan around to the teams that have missed out on some of the bigger starting pitchers on the market would still seem wise. Again, we all love the guy, but he's not going to be contributing when this team is ready to make a serious run.
Capps' assumed financial hit, as well as the fact that he's certainly replaceable by players who are not only in the system, but already at the big league level, should make shopping him an easy choice. The extra year of club control (though it will probably be expensive) could make him more attractive to some interested teams. Eating the rest of Guzman's contract and getting a prospect from a contender looking for middle infield help would still be logical as well.
Basically, my middle ground centers around keeping two players not nailed down for 2012 (Pudge, and you'll be disappointed with the other one) and dealing another (Willingham) only if they can get far more than Rizzo thinks he's really worth.
First, let's deal with Pudge. Assuming young (big league ready) pitching is coming back if they deal Dunn, three of the starters next season are going to be Strasburg, Zimmermann, and (insert player traded for here). Veteran presence is often overstated, but when you're talking about a veteran Hall of Fame catcher helping to groom young starting pitchers and teach them the game, it's another issue. They wouldn't likely get much for Pudge on the open market right now anyway, and his salary for next season ($3 million) wouldn't kill them.
Err.... The other one. "Professional hitter" Adam Kennedy. Why keep him? He's a stopgap, and a pretty cheap one at that. Kennedy would be due $2 million in 2011 if the Nats pick up his option, and would likely serve in a platoon role at 2b with Alberto Gonzalez. The key is whether or not Rizzo feels like Danny Espinosa will be ready to reach the majors by 2012 (either pushing Desmond to second or manning second himself). As Gonzalez has shown a tendency to crush lefties from the right side and Kennedy (.283/.336/.404) has handled right-handers fairly well throughout his career, they make a decent enough platoon for 2011 (when the Nats still aren't likely to be contending anyway) until Espinosa is ready to take over.
Activity in the free agent market would still be optimal. Particularly if the Nats are able to acquire a potential cheaper and younger first base replacement for Dunn in dealing one of these guys, they'd have a lot more financial flexibility heading into the offseason. If they've retained Kennedy affordably and are happy with what they see out of Espinosa (i.e., confident enough that he'll be ready to go by 2012), they don't have to pursue an Orlando Hudson or a (protecting my face) Felipe Lopez. They should pursue Crawford or Werth with everything they've got.
Either Way, Rizzo's Tenure Could Be Defined By The Next Few Days
Which course Rizzo chooses to take, I can't say. However, which one he chooses could well define his legacy (or failure, though I hope that's not the case) in the coming years. He could deal Dunn for a handful of prospects that never pan out.... heck, he could deal Dunn, Capps, and Willingham for a handful of prospects that never pan out.
He could make a deal or two that turns out to help shape the franchise for a playoff run a couple of years down the road.
He could hold onto Dunn, re-sign him and watch him either flourish as a happy tertiary face of the franchise (sorry... not surpassing Zimm or Strasburg) or flop as a guy whose skills don't seem to age particularly well.
He could keep them all and lose Dunn for draft picks in the coming offseason, either to hit the jackpot again with a kid like Jordan Zimmermann or grab a couple of guys who never really have any success above A ball.
Either way, Rizzo's decisions about what to do by Saturday could be the biggest decisions he ever makes as the General Manager of the Washington Nationals. I, for one, am enthralled.... even if many of you just want it to be over.
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Good article but....
You have written a good summary of the alternatives and pros and cons of the various paths the Nationals could take. As I have already mentioned in a few posts and comments myself, I feel compelled to supplement your piece.
1. While you state we have a porous defense, you do not explicitly connect the dots between the mediocre pitching statistics you cite and the bad defense. The pitching in the pipeline is better than what the stats. imply, so if and when our defense is brought to above average status from the current well below status, it may be sufficient. Most of the readers and yourself surely understand there is a connection, but what I see frequently is that our discussion and evaluation gives it much less weight than it should. If one believes, as I do, that defense should be weighted as high as offense then why do we fail to account for it sufficiently (again IMHO). I think the reasons include the difficulty in evaluating it objectively with good statistics, , the non-linear interaction between defense and pitching effectiveness, and the less ‘exciting’ nature of a good field/average hit guy.
2. The trading possibilities for Dunn (or Willingham, Capps) could include two defensive hole fillers that hit enough to be viable in the lineup. Two .230 to .250 hitters that are above average defensively and with average to above speed and smarts could be fetched for Dunn. I leave it to others to name candidates that fit this bill. So trading some of them does NOT mean ‘starting over’, since it need not be trading veterans with value for prospects only.
3. You give the acquisition of a second catcher too little weght, though you correctly (IMHO) mention Pudge should be a platoon catcher. I strongly agree, so a catcher to replace the woeful Nieves is a must.. Pudge is wearing down (i.e., bat speed slowing) by playing too much this season.
I would love the “all in” approach except for two reservations. One, will the money be committed? And two, will the available money actually lure quality players to Washington at this point? Because I have strong doubts that there are ‘yes’ answers to both of these questions I favor the trade route immediately. Standing pat even with the rehab pitchers coming around, but not plugging the defense holes, will, I fear, leave us far shot of the goal.
PItch-to-contact is a problem
“P2C” needs sharp glovework behind it, which we haven’t seen consistently this season—but moving from sinker/slider types (see: entire current rotation) to high-strikeout power pitchers (Stras, J-Zim, Maya?) takes a bit of pressure off the defense. I’d also take issue with the characterization of the Nats’ defense as “well below average.” The error totals are painful, but the consensus of the advanced metrics puts the Nats around league average in terms of runs saved/lost (Ultimate Zone is near zero, Total Zone is below average, Defensive Runs Saved is above average by the same amount—it’s a wash, overall). I’m not arguing against improving the defense, mind you, but I think the holes in the batting order (Morgan’s OBP, Pudge’s GDPs, the Kennedy/Harris/Guz Miami OutMachine) are a bigger problem.
"And everybody lived happily ever after. Except the Phillies and the Mets. The End." --Sasskuash
Friend of Dukes and Desmond #3
I agree
adding even more holes in the batting order in order to make the defense better would just make this team horrible. When people say the Padres win with pitching and defense, they do, but its because their pitching isn’t just good, its flat out amazing, and I don’t see the Nats having that type of rotation anytime soon.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
The Padres example
Sure, they win with pitching and defense. They do only rank 20th in the majors with 435 runs scored on the year. The Nats rank 26th with 409 (in two extra games).
For the contrarian example, you can look at this year’s Seattle Mariners. After committing their resources this past offseason to build around a strong defense and a strong pitching staff, they rank dead last (by a fairly significant margin (338 runs in 102 games… 16 behind the Pirates with 154 in 100 games) in runs scored. Despite a 3.98 ERA (12th in the league), the Mariners have the fourth worst record in baseball at 39-63. I don’t care how good the pitching and defense are. You can’t win in the majors if your putting up an average of 3.3 runs per game.
by bluelineswinger on Jul 29, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Ew, Padres.... (paging souldrummer)
The Padres have a relatively egalitarian OPS in each spot of the lineup though, and they hit with runners in scoring position. They also score in spurts and are very timely.
That’s them riding talented kids (they’ve been playing well since post-All Star break last year) and having a bit of luck too.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise.
FLOP!!
I don’t care if he seems to have turned it around and become a legit option for 2B—you just know the Nats would be buying at the absolute peak of his career, and he’d revert to the FAILtastic FLoP that made us wail and gnash our teeth back in 2008. He carries the Bowden taint. I mean, I guess I could give him another chance, but I’d be expecting replacement-level at best, no matter how many WAR he racked up this season.
"And everybody lived happily ever after. Except the Phillies and the Mets. The End." --Sasskuash
Friend of Dukes and Desmond #3
Garrett Mock
Nobody’s talking about him lately. I think he’s a potential stud. Any word on him? Is he under the Nats’ control next year?
Rob
"Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection." -- Red Smith
Bluelineswing, your example tends to proof my case..
You cite one example of good pitching/ strong defense working (Padres) and one (Mariners) where the pitching is not that good (defense I do not know) and have a losing record. Well, could it just be that the Mariners attempted this strategy, but have been unable to accomplish the right combination of personnel? Making the attempt is not the same as achieving it. I advocate a particular strategy to achieve a goaI, but this does not mean it is easy, and may not be quick. I advocate this route for the Nationals because, among the alternatives, it would be the fastest route to respectabilty (.500 or better), since we have (IMHO) decent ‘projected’ pitching, currently poor defense (which is easier to improve via acquisitions than stand out hitters), below average hitting, and an atrocious record with the current core offensive guys. In addition there are historically several examples of the sucess of this strategy: Chisox (1959), Dodgers (early-mid 1960s), Braves (starting mid-1990s), and Mets (1969) to name a few. None of us really knows what level of hitting is required for a given level of pitching, in order to be successful, but what I do know is that the Nationals can keep their positional players intact and the result will be essentially the same for an extended period.
I think BLS' example argues for a balanced approach...
…since the Padres are winning with excellent pitching/defense, but still have better offense than the current Nats. That means that the Nats will have to improve their pitching/defense to be even better than the Padres’ if they want to win. Again, defense might be a hole, but hitting is a bigger one. Note that the Pads are exactly league average in runs scored/game, with a team OPS+ of 99…. so they’re winning with excellent defense and a league-average offense. Nats put up a 93 team OPS+ and are well below average in runs/game.
None of us really knows what level of hitting is required for a given level of pitching, in order to be successful
I’d argue we know exactly what level of hitting is necessary to succeed: the team has to score more runs that it gives up. The Nats have more room to improve on the offense side than the defense side, and defensive help in the form of improved (we hope) pitching is already coming. Fix the bats next.
"And everybody lived happily ever after. Except the Phillies and the Mets. The End." --Sasskuash
Friend of Dukes and Desmond #3
The Padres also win because they have "glue" guys
A constant pest, a la David Eckstein. Those guys make teams tick
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise.
At no point am I saying that they should go after defensive sieves
Admittedly, I didn’t point to examples of superior defensive players that they should possibly look to acquire. Nor did I mention very many of the prospects that they should be looking to obtain in any regard (If I’m not mistaken, the only prospect mentioned was Daniel Hudson as an example of a name that’s been thrown out in the media pretty often).
You’re not mentioning everything with your examples, though.
- The 1959 White Sox scored 4.3 runs per game, just a tenth of a run short of the AL average that season.
- The Dodgers of the 1960s were probably slightly below the NL average when figuring their three pennants. In 1963, they were just a hint above the league average. In 1965 and 1966 they were about .3 runs off the pace of the league average. They did lead the NL in strikeouts in two of those seasons (finished third in 1965), so the power pitching was a bit of an influence as well… I think there was this Koufax guy that helped them.
- The ‘69 Miracle Mets finished .15 runs short of the league average, but their run prevention was strong enough to overcome that. They were another team that was above average in terms of strikeout production, but they didn’t lead the league or anything.
- During their run in the 1990s, the Braves finished lower than fourth in the National League in runs scored just three times (one of those was in the strike shortened season, when our beloved Expos/Nationals had a six game lead on them before the season was canceled). They never led the league, and had just two seasons where they finished below the league average (1995 when they were 21 off the pace, and if you want to include the 2000 season, they finished with 810 runs [the league average was 811]). They were efficient defensively and had a tremendous pitching staff, but they scored plenty of runs.
As Doghouse says below, the level of hitting required for a given level of pitching is one that will outscore their opponents. You’d like any positional prospects that the Nats acquire at the deadline to be strong defenders as well as good hitters.
Either way, with one cornerstone position set well both offensively and defensively (3b) and another currently occupied by a young player who has been a liability at times this season, but has shown that he has the skills to get it done defensively (Desmond at SS), their most likely positions to try and acquire through trade positionally are 1b, 2b, and RF. Of the three, only 2b is a spot on the diamond where a weak defender is going to be consistently exploited, so defense is a need there.
As for the free agent examples I brought up, isn’t Hudson known for his defense more than his bat? Also, last I checked, many touted Carl Crawford as one of the top defensive outfielders in the game.
by bluelineswinger on Jul 29, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Since I had to bring up the Mariners
An interesting article on Fangraphs
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/do-the-mariners-prove-that-fielding-is-overvalued/
by bluelineswinger on Jul 29, 2010 4:02 PM EDT reply actions
Haven't looked at it yet
But I’m sure Gutierrez is mentioned in there— he’s arguably the best defensive CF in the game
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise.
one last response then I will have said my piece..
The link to the Mariner’s article, as you know, does not conclude anything—it is raises the question about the value of defense and discusses it in the context of the Mariner’s this season.
I got a laugh out of the use of the term ‘overvalued’ in relation to a discussion of defense. With possibly the exception of a few of us touting the Nationals to have the near-term goal of adding much better defense as the first priority, I have not come across much in the way of overvaluing defense in baseball.—just the opposite. I assert that offense is given too much emphasis, reatively speaking. Football seems to get it right in that teams and fans understand the value of defense a whole lot better than baseball fans seem to. In baseball there is a fair amount of lip service to the value of defense, but most fans look at a starting lineup with nary a concern about defensive capabilities.
I thought I had sounded intelligent enough to assure everyone that I know winning comes from scoring more runs than your opponent, but I guess at least a few have their doubts. Actually, total team run differential does not say exactly how many team wins will occur, but of course the correlation should be high. Leaving aside the obvious, what is not so clear is how many wins a team will have even if one knew in advance the common individual and team offensive and defensive metrics, esp. if the team values straddle the middle of the pack.
When you have a team with below average offense, defense, and pitching it is clear to me you have to make choices. It is beyond obvious to say you need a balance to win and we should acquire players who can both hit and field well. The most you are going to get via trade is one player like this for Dunn or other. Instead, I suggested lowering our sights for offensive prowess in order to fill more than one defense hole. Sure, if you get to above average in all three phases of the game you are very likely to have a winning team, perhaps a Division winner or better. Realistically, unless you have a 5 year time horizon, or a very large amount of free agency money, you need to set a strategy priority. Baseball history suggests to me the pitching/defense bias for the quickest way in our case. And if you set the near-term bar to exceed as: achieving just a winning record first then I assert that the run production and other offensive stats. can be below average, if you cannot do better.
No.... The link to the Mariners article doesn't really conclude anything
More than anything, it states that looking at a one team, one year sample size doesn’t really tell us much. It does even point out that of the ten players that have had the most AB for the M’s, 8 of them have fallen (well) short of their preseason projections at the plate. I do think that the comments following the article added an awful lot to the discussion, though. Adding both the article and the comments together, the conclusion that seemed to be drawn was that focusing solely on one area can eventually contradict itself.
By no means am I trying to insult your intelligence by saying that you don’t realize that winning teams are going to (generally) score more than the opposition…. This is not always the case when analyzing a full season’s worth of data, though it’s a general rule. We just don’t agree on how the Nats can get there.
I do like that you did a whole fanpost on what you feel the Nats should do, committing significantly more of their resources to players who are stronger with the glove even if they’re a little weaker with the bat. I also like that you primarily focused on the players up the middle (Desmond, Guzman, Nieves, Morgan were the examples you used that they needed to strengthen).
You did provide the examples of giving Alberto Gonzalez the starting 2b job (which would strengthen the defense at the cost of some strength with the bat) and moving Guzman back to SS (not sure that would help defensively, though the long-term benefits of allowing Desmond to focus on his defense in Syracuse are probably what you intend by that). Since you did mention trading a guy like Dunn, offering specific players to target rather than “solid second baseman, backup catcher, etc.” could possibly strengthen your argument.
By all means, my hopes for a return from the White Sox (who have been the most frequently mentioned trading partner for weeks) were that they get Dan Hudson (a starting pitcher, which is one of your suggestions) and Dayan Viciedo (a third baseman who is expected to move to first base….. another one of your four suggestions… a 1b). If there’s anything we’ve learned from Dunn playing a passable first base, it’s that great defensive skill at first isn’t a necessity to play the position. My first article on the subject of trading Dunn (linked at the top of this article) suggested that they strongly pursue a young starting pitcher (any one of them, pretty much) and Reid Brignac (solid defensive middle infielder) from the Rays.
I actually suggested in the MLB Trade Rumors thread I linked to that the Nats consider moving Nyjer Morgan as well. Bernadina figures to be just as strong defensively in CF and not quite as insanely aggressive (which is usually what leads to Morgan’s mistakes in the field), though I held that out of this article. A corner outfield spot is far more replaceable, though RF has been an issue for the Nats this season.
Yes…. They need to improve the defense. More importantly, they need to improve the starting pitching, as they really only have two starters that it seems that they feel 100% on. They also need to improve the offense long term, which has been subpar with Dunn and Willingham, and would only figure to get worse without them. Acquiring a young slugging first baseman (be it a prospect or someone already in the majors) who wouldn’t provide quite the offense that Dunn provides would still likely upgrade the defense while the offense wouldn’t take a HUGE hit.
Again, I’m not saying that you don’t realize that you have to score more runs than the other team to win. I’m not saying that you can’t realize that there’s going to have to be some kind of balance and that the defensive specialists that the Nats could acquire couldn’t hit. I just think that some suggestions about players who would fit the mold of being:
A) Available in a trade for Dunn
B) Presumably making the team cheaper/younger, as that’s what they’re going to get from a contending team looking to upgrade their current big league roster
AND
C) Fit the mold of defensive specialists who can at least be passable with the bat
would be helpful. I don’t think you’re going to find many available. You bring some good ideas to the table here, but my opinion is that the argument falls a bit flat because you seem to have a little tunnel vision.
by bluelineswinger on Jul 29, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Rizzo certainly looks to be off to a good start with the Capps deal
Getting top prospect Wilson Ramos and some probable organizational filler in Joe Testa for a reliever!
by bluelineswinger on Jul 30, 2010 12:44 AM EDT reply actions

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