As Promised, Blueline's Deadline Breakdown
(ed. note - "bluelineswinger posted this early this morning, but the discussion has been going on all day, so I figured it deserved more time front and center...")
First off, I'll lead with a little something about myself... Many of you have heard this already, but to any of the people who are new to the site, this could be some of the background that leads to my feelings on the subject at hand. I've invested about 30 years of my life as a fan of this franchise (including their time as the Montreal Expos). I've seen the patterns of losing, coupled with sporadic periods of success during the franchise's tenure in Montreal. Unfortunately, that success was almost always followed by a purging of the payroll, which meant the young stars that the club had developed were out the door and succeeding elsewhere without many sustained successful runs.
The years leading up to the 1994 strike were probably the best of them. The Expos actually had a nice run where they finished above .500 in five of eight seasons (in two of those other seasons, they finished exactly .500). They had the best record in baseball at the time of the strike, which (in retrospect, coupled with ownership/the front office's unwillingness to keep the team together) essentially killed baseball in Montreal. It was a slow death. Financial decisions to let Larry Walker leave via free agency and trade Marquis Grissom, Ken Hill, and John Wetteland for pennies on the dollar doomed the franchise..... and destroyed the attendance figures (seriously. They were never great in Montreal, but the fans showed up before the strike. After it? Not so much).
Having never lived in Montreal or DC, I've remained true to this team since I first got into baseball. Unfortunately, my distance from the franchise's home also means that I've never been a big (or any, really) part of the team's attendance figures (OK. That's not completely true. I've been to about a dozen games in the old Olympic Stadium when they were the Expos. My last home Expos/Nats game was in 2002. I watch them religiously from afar (thank goodness for the improvements of cable and satellite TV!), and make sure to go to at least one of the games each year when they play the Cardinals in St. Louis, my home.
As a fan, I certainly grow attached to the players that the Nationals have, and I certainly want to see the club get on a better path (I'd argue that they've done many things to get on that path, but... well.... we'll get there later on. I told everyone this was going to be long).... preferably quickly. It does not, however, affect my attendance at the team's home games. I certainly plan on getting to DC for a game someday in the (near?) future, but that will likely happen whether the Nats are winning or losing. I don't like to see the team in a perpetual rebuilding mode, where they're trading their top players away for "prospects." I do, however, see the value at times, and that's why my viewpoint on this subject disagrees with the majority opinion here.
With some background out of the way, I'm going to tackle the moves and non-moves that GM Mike Rizzo made at the deadline. I've been outspoken about what I feel should should have happened in regards to Adam Dunn, and most of the analysis will be about the fact that he remains a National. However, fully evaluating Rizzo's job at the deadline means that we have to look at the other moves that the organization made as well.
Signed Yuniesky Maya to a 4 year, $6 Million deal - Technically speaking, this was not a trade. It was, however, an acquisition made by the front office in the weeks leading up to the deadline. At 28 (listed.... you never really know), we're going to see exactly what Maya can do in the big leagues pretty quickly. There's liable to be an adjustment period as he gets acclimated to MLB hitters (and vice versa), but his skills don't figure to improve (or decline) dramatically in the next couple of seasons. He's a finished product. How that translates (A #3 starter? A #4 or #5?) is something that we won't know until we've seen him perform for a bit in North America.
The reality is probably that Maya will quickly become a guy who could be a #4 starter on a contending team, but will slot in as a number two (behind Strasburg) or number three (behind Zimmermann) on the Nats. The likelihood is that we see Maya in September, and his signing is a huge win for the organization. As financial terms of offers from other clubs haven't been made public, we can't necessarily say that they outbid teams that had shown interest such as the Yankees, Red Sox, and some of the other usual suspects. We can say that they won out for one reason or another, and the assumption is that fellow Cuban emigres Livan and Orlando Hernandez presence in the Nats' organization could have come in handy.
At an average annual value of $1.5 million per season, Maya's contract slots a lot closer to that which a young player (prospect, in other words) tends to get on the international market than that of an established finished product. Even if Maya isn't quite as good as advertised and slots in as a back-end starting pitcher, the likelihood is that the Nationals will get a decent surplus value in return for signing him.
Trade Matt Capps and Cash to Minnesota for C Wilson Ramos and LHP Joe Testa -
The Nats have been praised as big winners in this deal. There's good reason for that, and I personally love the deal that Rizzo made here. Ramos was considered the #58 prospect in all of baseball by Baseball America in the preseason. He was considered the #42 prospect in all of baseball by ESPN's Keith Law. In truth, it's hard to find any prospect moguls who weren't high on Ramos in the preseason, and with good reason.... the kid did hit .317/.341/.454 as a 21-year-old in AA last year (perhaps a bit young for the league for a catcher). His defensive reputation behind the plate is outstanding as well. However, I do think that Dave Cameron's take on Dated Information is not something that should be taken too lightly.
The fact of the matter is that Ramos' performance in Rochester (Twins AAA affiliate) has to be taken into account here as well. Ramos was hitting just .241/.280/.345 for the Red Wings this season at the time of the deal. There are certainly some flaws in his game that he needs to correct. Most notably, his plate discipline is positively Cristian Guzman-like. He's also been known to struggle against breaking balls, and he's developing a bit of a reputation for being fragile. There are certainly some hills (mountains?) to climb if he's ever to become a star, but he still figures to be a quality starting catcher who shouldn't require too much more time developing. His defense alone should get him there. Maybe he turns into a guy who can hit for some power as well, or maybe he turns into a poor man's Yadier Molina.
Testa doesn't figure to become any kind of major piece in the organization, but could eventually pay dividends as a lefty (LOOGY maybe?) out of the bullpen. The more likely scenario is that he ends up becoming organizational filler.
Regardless of whether Ramos ever develops into anything better than a league average starting catcher or not, the deal was a solid one on Rizzo's end. Capps cost the club nothing in terms of personnel this past offseason after being non-tendered by the Pirates. Rizzo installed him as a stopgap at the back of the bullpen, watched Capps earn himself a trip to (and a win at) the All Star Game as the Nats' closer, and flipped him for an asset that figures to be more useful. In doing so, Rizzo probably trimmed $6 or $7 million or so off the books for next season, assuming that the Nats would have offered Capps arbitration. Ramos isn't necessarily more useful because he's a better player. That remains to be seen. Either way, he's cost efficient, controlled for the next six years, and fills a position of greater need.
Contrary to many in the mainstream media's beliefs, the deal should work out fine on both ends. Capps not only improves the Twins bullpen depth the rest of the season, but was immediately (correctly, in my eyes) installed in the closer's role, pushing (former Nat) Jon Rauch back to his more familiar setup role. Though Capps won't be cheap next season for Minnesota, he's someone that they're likely to retain, and with good reason. Capps doesn't have the track record of Joe Nathan, but he's also not going to be 36 and coming off of Tommy John surgery next season. The Twins decision to pay (fairly handsomely) for a proven closer at the deadline indicates that they may not be so confident that Nathan will come back at 100% next season. Capps is a terrifiic insurance plan for them next season as well.
Traded SS Cristian Guzman and Cash to the Rangers for RHP Ryan Tatusko and RHP Tanner Roark
The Nats will pick up about 75% of the remaining salary on Guzman's deal, which is still better than the 100% they'd have had to pay had they not been able to move him. Guzman was walking at the end of the season, and there's no reason that Rizzo should have had any intention of re-signing him. Guzman is right on the border of being a Type B Free Agent this offseason, but any General Manager that would consider offering him the arbitration necessary to require a compensatory pick should have his head examined. Guzman is making $8 million this season, and arbitration rules state that his club will have to offer him a minimum of 80% of that sum through arbitration. That's $6.4 million, and Guzman would be a fool not to accept arbitration and remain an albatross.
As I referenced Dave Cameron's fine work at Fangraphs when talking about the deal for Ramos, I'll mention another one that I found via some of my other regular reading (Rob Neyer's SweetSpot Blog on ESPN). Steve Buffum gives us some great analysis about the Indians' deadline (and pre-deadline, in the case of Russell Branyan) deals and how they could prove crucial to the organization's long-term improvement even if the prospects they got in return may not amount to anything. Though Cleveland's trades of Branyan, Jhonny Peralta, Austin Kearns, Jake Westbrook, and Kerry Wood offer them a more extreme situation in which to evaluate their talent, the removal of Cristian Guzman achieves the same thing on a smaller scale for the Nats.
I'm sure I'm alone (I've said I'm alone on some things, but I know I am on this one!) when I say that Rizzo may (or should) strongly consider exercising Adam Kennedy's $2 million option for next season. The fact of the matter is that the Nats don't have a viable replacement (yet?) at the minor league level for the 2011 season. $2 million is market value (possibly a bit below) for a player of Kennedy's talents making the majority of the starts at second base. Removing Guzman, a player who certainly wouldn't have been retained, affords Jim Riggleman more at bats to evaluate whether Kennedy is worth retaining pretty cheap next season to serve as a stopgap until a long-term replacement (presumably Danny Espinosa.... or Ian Desmond moving across second base to accomodate Espinosa) is prepared to take over the job.
It will also give the Nats more at bats to evaluate how useful Alberto Gonzalez can be to them. Barring an August (post-waiver deadline) trade where the Nats bring in a second baseman, I would suspect that they'll find Kennedy is good enough to retain at that price, and platoon him with Gonzalez next season..... It won't be greeted with cheers here, but it may well be the most prudent baseball move to make.
Tatusko's overachieving in AA this season, and the long-term ceiling is that he joins the fold as one of the Nats' many AAAA starter types. I doubt we'll ever see him pitch in the majors. There's a little more of a ceiling for Roark, though the prevailing opinion is that the Nats got a guy who probably slots in as a non-leverage reliever somewhere down the road. Both figure as Grade C prospects, but the removal of Guzman from the roster is beneficial to the long-term health of the organization.
Rizzo's Reputation
Speculation around the league is that Rizzo may have harmed his reputation around the league with his handling of the Dunn situation. Regardless of the fact that we can't say what truly happened in the "he said, she said" situation with Chicago, I will admit that it probably could affect future dealings with the Chicago White Sox negatively. I'll also concede that some GMs around the league will be loath to deal with him a bit more in the future. That said, the decision not to trade Dunn could positively influence future trade negotiations as well.
Rizzo set his price, and he told teams to meet it or he'd keep the player. As the deadline passed on Saturday and he hadn't seen the price he was asking for offered, he didn't budge. I'm sure there were negotiations (according to Rosenthal, not with the White Sox, but hey..) prior to the deadline where Rizzo tried to meet in the middle a little bit. However, in the end, he says that he didn't find what he was looking for, so he stuck to his guns. If nothing else, other teams' General Managers will now know that Rizzo means business and is a straight shooter. Sometimes the best deals are the ones you walk away from, and he obviously felt strongly enough about this situation to walk away.
And now, for the long part........
DNTAD! (Or, spelled out) Did Not Trade Adam Dunn
This entire section could be negated, and we should find out whether it is in the next 24-48 hours. As has been posted numerous times on the site, Dunn is currently on (revocable) trade waivers. It's blatantly obvious that Dunn will not clear waivers, but there's a decent possibility that he'll slip far enough so that a contending team that is looking to acquire his services will place the winning claim. At that point, Rizzo would have 48 hours to try and work a deal with the team that places the winning claim or pull Dunn back. He would obviously pull Dunn back if he couldn't work a deal. The assumption is that he won't make it out of the National League, probably being claimed by one of the three teams chasing the Padres in the NL West. If Dunn were to somehow make it through the National League, there's no way he would make it past Boston, who would likely try to block the Yankees and Rays even if they didn't want him. There's about a 90% chance that this ends with Rizzo pulling Dunn back off waivers.... probably higher. He had until July 31 to deal with multiple teams, and there's no real shot that the offers are going to improve when one team would be bidding against itself in August.
It's obvious that the majority of Nats fans wanted the team to keep Dunn at the deadline. It's also been known throughout the process by our readers at Federal Baseball that I fall on the other side of the fence. It's not that I don't like Dunn; It's not that I think Dunn can't be a significant contributor to the long-term success of this franchise as a member of the Washington Nationals; It's not like I will stop cheering for him or the Nats because they chose (I have to use the word choice, as it's clear that there were several suitors for Dunn's services) to keep him. I just happen to feel that the resources that will be allocated towards (presumably) keeping Adam Dunn in a Washington Nationals uniform could be better allocated elsewhere. Again, this is going to be long... and I'll get to it.
Locking Dunn Up Long-Term
There are both benefits and drawbacks with the Nats deciding to lock Adam Dunn up long-term. Since many of you probably think I only see the drawbacks, let's look at what I view as some of the positives:
- The most obvious one is his bat. Dunn brings a consistent power stroke to the table, and has averaged more than 40 homers per season since 2004. He also brings a .382 lifetime On Base Percentage to the table, and brings plenty of success with the bat even when he's not bashing 400+ foot bombs
- He's very popular with the fans, and puts more butts in the seats on a regular basis. The extra two months alone of having Dunn on the roster will help keep attendance steadier... bringing the financial benefits that come with it
- He's said to be very popular in the clubhouse as well, and seems very tight with the face of the franchise that he protects in the order (Ryan Zimmerman, of course)
- He's improved with the glove a bit, as the club has found a position where they can mask his defensive shortcomings a bit more at first base. The sample sizes are a bit too small to say just how much more efficient he is defensively, but his defense doesn't drag down his bat at this point
- Signing Dunn long term would be viewed as a positive move by the people of DC. It would presumably show them that the Nationals don't intend to be in perpetual rebuilding mode, and that they're willing to spend the money necessary to retain their big players when they hit free agency.
One of the problems with choosing to keep Dunn is that, by not receiving an asset or two (presumably cheap) in return for him at the deadline, the Nats have painted themselves into a corner. Simply put, they have to re-sign Adam Dunn for this move to work. Beyond speculation, we don't know what the specific offers that Rizzo received for Dunn were. However, we can reason from that speculation (as well as the large number of suitors and chatter) that the offers he turned down were players that were more likely to contribute (and faster) than the draft pick compensation picks that they would get if Dunn is offered arbitration* and walks. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The Nats did well despite not trading Alfonso Soriano in 2006, but they were extremely fortunate with how Jordan Zimmermann has turned out. Playing the draft pick compensation game instead of taking proven commodities is a dangerous game, and it's going to backfire on you more often than it's going to pay off.
* There's a lot of speculation around the net that the Nats offering Dunn arbitration and him not accepting it is far from a given. I hate to get on the high horse, but I spit in their general direction of those comments. Dunn is making $12 million this season, and the 4 year, $60 million deal he is reportedly requesting would in actuality would be a 25% raise (most of the speculation around the net emphasizes that he's requesting a 50% raise.... given that he's in Year 2 of a 2 year/$20 million deal, this is only partially true. Dunn's salary was $8 million last season and $12 million this season. For arbitration figures, Dunn would have to be offered a minimum of 80% of the $12 million salary that he's making this season, or $9.6 million. Of course, the Nats wouldn't offer him the minimum).
Given Dunn's age, as well as the fact that he's having a career year with the stick (leading the NL in HR and XBH, currently boasts a career best Batting Average and Slugging Percentage [over a full season]), this is the biggest contract that Dunn figures to earn in his career, both in terms of years and dollars. If Dunn were to accept arbitration and earn $15 or $16 million with the Nats next season, that would likely be a better deal for the Nats than signing him to a four year deal.... and they'd just tell all those willing trade partners who wouldn't give enough up to make Rizzo happy that they'll see them again next year. Keeping Dunn at the deadline obviously said they intend to keep Dunn a Nat, and Rizzo has a general idea of what it will probably take. The money to sign him through arbitration is probably already budgeted... just on a longer term.
I obviously don't write the Lerner's checks, so I can't say exactly what is going to happen to the budget. I can say that a hefty percentage of whatever the budget is will now be tied up in locking up Dunn long-term. This means there's less money to go around elsewhere. Whether this eliminates or hinders the Nationals' spending on the free agent market this offseason, I can't say with 100% accuracy. I can say that it means they'll have less of an impact on the market for some of the bigger names, which is a bit contradictory in its own right. Why?
Choosing (there's that word again) to keep Dunn at the deadline this season says that Mike Rizzo feels that the Nationals are closer to contention than most outside of the organization (and many fans of the organization) feel they are. Note: I'm not saying they're closer to being more competitive... I'm saying they feel they're closer to contention. As baseball salaries have escalated out of control in the past couple of decades, we've seen far too many instances of teams with smaller budgets (I'm now trying to avoid using small "markets", as DC isn't a small market) locking up one player to outrageous deals that find themselves hamstrung by that deal for years. Here are some examples that don't even require us looking back more than a couple of years::
- Toronto Blue Jays - Vernon Wells (whose contract makes him immovable) and Alex Rios (whose contract they were so desperate to shed that they didn't pull him off waivers last August)
- Cleveland Indians - Has anyone seen the ghost of Travis Hafner (a player who, in his prime [which lasted all of a year or two] had pretty much exactly the same skill set as Dunn)? Poor Pronk... Or should I say Rich Pronk and Poor Indians?
- Kansas City Royals - There are many, but I'll point to the signing of Gil Meche for 5 years and $55 million. To his credit, Meche was actually pretty good when healthy, though it didn't translate to any jump in the standings
There are certainly more, but I'm not going to rehash an awful signing from every team (or even every small to mid market budget team).... not even if it was something that seemed like a good idea at the time. In fact, I can't truly argue that signing Dunn long-term would turn into one of these albatross players, but..... OK.... I'll do one more.
- Washington Nationals - Cristian Guzman..... The jury's still not comlpetely in on Jason Marquis' albatross trial, but there are eleven people trying to bully the last one into submission for a guilty verdict
Resume thought.... I can't argue that signing Dunn long-term would turn into an albatross of a contract, nor do I even think that it would (unless they include that fourth year, but that's besides the point). By stating (not officially, but by not trading him) that they plan to keep Dunn long-term, the Nats are stating that they feel that they have moved beyond the point where they're rebuilding. With an action rather than words, they've shown that they have eliminated the small market budget mentality of developing the bulk of their roster from within and sprinkling in moderate gains on the free agent market. They've shown that they're in "win now" mode, and nothing short of imposing that will on the free agent market is going to suffice.... because if they're not in "win now" mode, there's absolutely no reason to be carrying a $15 million slugger to eat up 15-20% of the budget.
Will Dunn be the best free agent on the market? Will he be the best fit for the Nationals among players on the market? Will he be the best first baseman on the market?
The answer to question number one is a resounding no. The 2010-11 free agent class doesn't look like it's going to be extremely deep or anything, but there's some top talent that will be out there. There are only a few that are clearly better options (around the league, and possibly for the Nats) than Dunn. As usual, the two main ones are presumed to be trying on Yankee pinstripes already, but:
- Cliff Lee will be far and away the best starting pitcher on the market, and figures to command a contract that's in the CC Sabathia (7 years, $161 million) range. There will be more affordable alternatives that are really good, though, in Javier Vazquez (he projects as a Type A, but it's doubtful the Yankees will even offer him arbitration... he might accept it), Ted Lilly, and Jorge de la Rosa. Only Lee is certainly better than Dunn, but there could be an argument that the Vazquez, Lilly, or de la Rosa could have a bigger impact on the Nats as a legitimate #2 starter
- Carl Crawford is hands down the best position player on the market. He plays left field, a spot currently occupied by Josh Willingham, but there would be no question about whether they'd be willing to move Willingham elsewhere (RF? 1b [if they were to not re-sign Dunn]), as Crawford not only brings more of an all-around skill set with the bat, but also is generally considered the best defensive LF in the game. Crawford is currently lapping the field in LF in terms of UZR/150 (+36.6... second in the majors is Juan Pierre is +15.0) and leads all OF in the category (Padres' part-time CF Tony Gwynn, Jr. is close, at +35.0.... the closest full-time starter is Giants' CF Andres Torres, at 26.9). Crawford will fetch a pretty penny, for sure, probably cashing in on $20 million or more per season. Crawford has averaged 4.05 WAR per full season, a figure that Dunn has surpassed twice in his nine year career (both were early on, before he outgrew the ability to play a passable corner outfield).
- Jayson Werth provides a little less with the bat than Dunn and a little more with the glove. He plays an area of need (RF) and will probably be in the same price-range that Dunn will command. I might take Dunn over him, but it would be awfully close. He's probably a better comparison with Josh Willingham.
- There will be quite a few quality 1b on the market this season, though none of them figure to be monsters. Dunn is probably the best of a crop that includes veterans such as Paul Konerko, Derrek Lee, Carlos Pena, Lance Berkman, and Aubrey Huff. All five of those names will come cheaper though.
- The middle infield crop looks pretty weak at first glance. Derek Jeter will technically have the option of becoming a free agent, but won't be. The Nats are unlikely to pursue a SS with Ian Desmond in town anyway. Orlando Hudson will lead the 2b crop for the third year in a row, while former Nat Felipe Lopez (which would be an unpopular signing, but not a horrible one depending upon the cost) is the best other out of house alternative. The smartest move might be to pick up the $2 million option that the club has on Adam Kennedy, something that they'll surely use the remainder of 2010 to evaluate.
In order to compete contend by 2012 (2011?), making a serious run at Carl Crawford would seem to be the best option regardless of whether they sign Dunn or not. Dunn's production throughout his career indicates that he's a very good player... heck, one that may in fact have a pretty decent shot at reaching the Hall of Fame (he'll be expected to hit HR #400 next year in his age 31 season). In terms of WAR, he doesn't compare to Crawford (32.5 to 27.0 despite having played one less season). Crawford is nearly two years younger and has a skill set that doesn't historically deteriorate as quickly as Dunn's does. Would Crawford cost more than Dunn? Sure.... Probably somewhere in the $4-7 million more per season range, or roughly what the Nats saved by trading Capps. Am I upset that they chose Dunn over going all-out to sign Crawford in the offsesaon? Not completely, as I don't think they'd have much of a shot at winning the bidding war for his services anyway.
Why They Should Have Traded Dunn
We've taken a long time to get here, so I hope you'll bear with me a little longer. Why should the Nats have traded Adam Dunn? Oddly enough, it's generally for many of the reasons stated above.
- The statement that the team made is that they have the pieces in the organization that are ready to contend by
2012next season - They should have quite a few of them, in guys like Strasburg, Zimmerman, Zimmermann, Storen, Desmond (?), etc. Far too many holes still exist on the roster, though. They have serious issues in the following areas: 2b, RF, consistent play in CF, and most importantly quality starting pitching behind Strasburg and presumably Zimmermann. Trading Dunn would have created a hole at 1b, but likely filled two of those needs at minimal cost. Paying out of pocket to address those needs through free agency is something that it doesn't look like the organization is likely to do (nor would it be prudent financially), which adding a $15 million payroll hit only further hinders. The depth in terms of starting pitching that they have in the high minors has proven to be anything but quality at the big league level, and the only position the club looks close to filling in the minors is second base (Espinosa/Desmond). - They're locked in long-term in a position where they pretty much have to sign Dunn - Again, draft pick compensation is something that the club can hope to pay dividends in 2014 or so. Ryan Zimmerman's contract is up after 2013. Would you blame Zimm for leaving if the franchise hasn't at least shown that it can build a contender around him by then? I sure wouldn't. Yes... They do have to sign Dunn. This is a tough position for Rizzo and a great one for Dunn and his camp. If they wanted to lock him up long-term, they should have worked harder at doing so before the deadline when they had more leverage.
- He's popular with the fans, and puts more butts in the seats - Feel free to read my disclaimer at the top of the post. What puts butts in the seats more than anything else is winning. Keeping Dunn around for two extra months while pigeonholing your offseason spending on him is less likely to lead to more wins than adding some cheaper, younger, big league level talent and allocating the money that would have been spent on Dunn in the free agent market.
- Is one
elitegreat player better than two or three really good players? It depends on your situation, and more importantly, who they're replacing. The Nats current situation screams to me that there are enough holes on the roster so that two or three really good players (presumably at far lesser cost, and likely at least one with the potential to be "great") are still more useful than one great player is to this team. I do feel that there was enough of a demand for Dunn at the deadline so that they could have gotten two really good talents for him, saving money to place into the free agent market and getting one player with the potential to provide as much production (albeit, at a different position) as Dunn two years down the road. I feel that the money that they saved, combined with the money they'll save from moving Capps, could have been used to find a better player than Dunn in the free agent market as well.
The key point I make is probably the last one. I want the building process to be over. You want the building process to be over. Rizzo wants the building process to be over. There does come a time when you have to pull back your chips, take a deep breath, and throw them all in. The questions are this:
- Is this the time and place that you're ready to make that last stand, or is it better to bid at the pot and protect yourself a bit?
- Is Adam Dunn the hand that you want to risk it all on?
Again, we don't know exactly what the offers Rizzo received were. It's entirely possible that teams were trying to completely lowball Rizzo. It's entirely possible that Rizzo was valuing Dunn as if he was on a different planet from every other GM in baseball. For this reason, I'm not going to say that I'm upset that Rizzo didn't trade Dunn (since I mentioned a word I was trying to avoid earlier with "small market", the words that I've been avoiding using the whole time in place of "chose to keep Dunn" are "failed to trade Dunn"). I am going to say that I'm disappointed that they weren't able to get what Rizzo would have felt was fair market value. I feel there's a time to go all in... I feel it's coming. I don't feel it's here yet.
This just seems like a missed opportunity.
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Do we know what the team budget is for next year?
Seems that if they think they are close to contending, it would need to grow. The Lerners are some of the richest owners and the Nats were the 3rd most profitable team, so I have to believe there is the potential to grow the budget quickly to fill holes. I also don’t think Stan Kasten would want to be involved in a penny-pinching operation.
I think a huge thing that we have to take into account is the steadily inflated average payroll figure.
If we don’t have the system yet and we can’t compete with internal fill-ins, then we’re going to need to spend selectively to compete. That means paying right for the likes of de la Rosa and hoping to not strike another Marquis again.
Anyway, I guess my point is that money is going to have to be there to be competitive. Not many teams can pull off a Padres or Rays— and having seen both teams play, I still barely understand how the Padres do it— and we aren’t there developmentally. I think that there is a fine-line between the Brewers’ payroll and the Angels’ payroll per se (one elite player, but is there any difference in their records right now?), but we’d still have to get to the Brewers’ payroll to become competitive in our current state.
Good job with the article good sir, but as always, there are talking points (e.g. Twins’ overrating the save stat, which you countered well with Nathan’s situation [and albatross salary for his age, or any closer for that matter]).
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Rizzo seems to believe that the quantity will sort itself out for next year.
If I were the Nats, I probably would not pay for a guy like DeRosa next year. Let’s say that we’re a 70 win team right now. The challenge then is to find out where you’re likely to get 10+ additional wins while hoping you get lucky and get more than that to contend. Where does that come from?
1) More Strasburg innings. He’ll get what, 95-100 this year? The plan is that he gets 180 innings next year. There’s improvement right there.
2) Maturity amongst current assets. Seems to me they are counting on Desmond being better next year. This means keeping his bat about where it is while improving his defense. Likewise, it’s not unreasonable to expect some modest improvement amongst the outfield rotation of Morgan, Morse, and Bernadina.
3) Legit 4/5 starters. Luis Atilano, JD Martin, bad Jason Marquis, bad John Lannan, and bad Craig Stammen have all spent too much time in our rotation this year. Even replacing them with Jordan Zimmermann’s floor for next year, Maya, and a member of the backend battle royale will represent improvement. I don’t think that we can expect Livo to pitch like the 3 starter he’s been this year. So maybe it’s better to assume that Jordan Zimmermann takes on Livo’s role. In that case, you’re still looking at better options in the 4/5 roles than we currently have.
4) The departure of the out machines. The long awaited departure of Willie Harris and Wil Nieves will help. A legit left handed pinch hitter who can be injury insurance elsewhere on the diamond would be a help. Much as we clowned Omar Infante’s presence on the Braves, a supersub of some kind may be the affordable option that could replace a couple of outmachines with a positive WAR asset.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Thanks for posting; we agree to disagree ;-)
Bernardina is trying to make a push to say that RF isn’t as much of a problem as before; Morse is trying to make that argument as well. I’m not saying that either of them is the answer, just that right now they are low cost alternatives to free agents that can just as easily become mid-level albatrosses (see Guzman, Christian).
Which leads me to my second point. While one contract can turn into an albatross, investing a lot of money into role players only works if you choose the right role players. If you are betting that Aubrey Huff has found the fountain of youth, or that Lance Berkman will find it, then that’s as much of a gamble as betting on Dunn.
And I believe that Dunn is a pretty decent bet, although obviously not a gimme. He’s big but not fat (a la Prince Fielder – whose Dad’s career was eerily similar and went downhill fast in his early 30’s). He’s consistent, unlike Pronk who parlayed a couple of good years into $$$$.
RF is still a problem.
Either Seattle will regret letting Morse go or Morse will regret not being the prospect he could have been.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Concur
My point is that I’m less concerned that it’s a problem then before, when J-Max and TAWH were sucking the life out of the Nats lineup (although J-Max somehow manages to walk an awful lot, his BA is unsustainably low).
Although it’s been fun having flashes of Tony Plush back in the lineup, if Nyjer sits for a few days to rest his hip that could be a great chance to see if Morse can sustain his hitting on a regular basis.
I did bring up the CF issue as well
Morgan’s inconsistency and track record of bad decisions indicate that it’s just as likely that he’s truly the fourth outfielder everyone thought he was prior to his joining the Nats last season. Bernadina could fill that role as well.
In truth, they’re probably looking at Josh Willingham in left field and three guys who would realistically be fourth outfielders on a contending team in Morgan, Bernadina, and Morse. Yes…. The competition between the three is a good thing, and one of them may well prove that they’re better than a fourth outfielder. Are we banking that two of them can prove that, though?
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
You seem to be a bit more on the pro-Crawford side than I am.
I’m hoping that it doesn’t come to us feeling we have to sign another big positon player guy to make a splash if Dunn doesn’t come back. What’s your take on Tori Hunter’s current deal and it’s affect on the Angels? Isn’t there a chance that Crawford could be a Tori Hunter comp?
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Sorry..... catching up
Seems I got quite a discussion brewing here, about cable revenues and everything (gulp… don’t have much to add on the local MASN side)
On the defensive side, Hunter had shown some signs of decline prior to signing with the Angels. His final two seasons in Minnesota actually saw negative runs saved. Crawford’s production is going in the opposite direction with the glove, as he’s currently at 19.1 RAR after seasons of 15.8 and 17.5 the past two years. As he ages, it’s impossible to think that he’ll continue to get better on an annual basis, but he hasn’t shown the decline defensively that Hunter was showing.
Hunter just turned 35, and was 33 when he signed with the Angels. The general productivity curve will show a player’s prime seasons being between 27 and 32-33. Hunter was entering the seasons where he was expected to begin a bit of a general decline.
Today, ironically, is Carl Crawford’s 29th birthday, putting him flat in the middle of what are expected to be his prime seasons. He’s celebrating that birthday with a 5.1 WAR to this point in the season, second behind last year’s 5.5 (there’s still a lot of season left, and the expectation is that he’ll surpass that by quite a bit). Despite his multiple gold gloves and strong batting lines throughout the years, Hunter has never had a season in which he amassed more than 4.5 WAR (2002… his age 27 year).
There’s concern, yes. There’s concern with signing any player to a long-term deal. Hunter’s deal has certainly hurt the Angels, but not nearly as much as the crazy above market deals they offered to Gary Matthews, Jr. and Brian Fuentes. They’ve spent big, and it could be argued that they haven’t spent particularly wisely.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
For two years
I think right field will be settled in September 2012, so its about what we do as a stopgap
Aim for the head baby Jesus
Yes.... we think it will be settled in September 2012
But there’s certainly far from a guarantee that Harper will ascend to his expected stardom. Heck, they have to sign the guy first, and the fact that he didn’t sign quickly (we all knew he wouldn’t, but it would have been in his best interest) means that he won’t get an opportunity to start his professional career until next season. As good as Harper’s supposed to be, stating that an 18 year old kid is going to be up in the majors in less than two full seasons of pro ball is awfully presumptuous. We hope and expect that it’s possible. We can’t assume it or state it as fact…. It’s just not.
Also, by September 2012, Josh Willingham’s deal/club control will have expired. Does that mean the Nats don’t retain him? Certainly not… there’s an excellent chance they’ll lock him up beyond that final arbitration year. The fact of the matter, though, is that it isn’t a given.
It’s hard to project what the Nats roster will look like eight months from now at the start of the 2011 season. Assuming pieces on the 2012 roster (particularly by September) can’t be much more than speculation.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
He might not be a star
but i think he will be penciled in for 140 something games a year for several years there, whether he lives up to expectations or not.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
Small Market Redskins
Doesn’t sound right does it? People that think this is a small market are deluding themselves. I don’t think this team views its holes as something that can’t be filled through free agency. The holes are also less than they seem now. There are still a lot of ifs, but there are always ifs. I think this team might find out that they are better with Bernie in center and Morse in right. All of a sudden that is one less hole, and if Ramos works out then all of a sudden second base is the only need. Espinosa most likely is a September call-up and has a chance to win the job in Spring Training. Holes can go away quickly. The rotation still needs some work and that is the most important thing. I think Rizzo would have traded Dunn if he didn’t think he could resign him. The days of the low budget Nats might be closer to an end than we know.
The horrible TV deal with Angelos prevents the Nationals from bringing in big market revenue at least for a few more years
Aim for the head baby Jesus
This one gets tossed around a lot too, but I'm not sure how applicable is it.
The Nats don’t have too many viewers right now. I believe the deal with this is that the Orioles have to pay the Nats a flat fee for their television rights. TV rights on the baseball side probably are not worth but so much. Again, like the total payroll issue, the TV rights question is one where we need some more objective research to figure out what the deal actually is.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
The Orioles pay the Nationals pennies on the dollar though
And that’s the problem.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Not saying you're wrong.
Link? Evidence? Comparison with other midmarket team’s deals? Not trying to challenge, it’s just that I see this one tossed out there without evidence a lot of the time.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
I think we're paid around $25M per season, I'll check
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
The thing is Washington DC should not be a midmarket
The TV market here is huge. The Nats don’t currently get great ratings, but even if they did, their TV revenue wouldn’t go up. Also MASN being owned by Angelos prevents the team from doing the kind of Marketing that would improve ratings, instead we get “Who? Will Nievas”
Aim for the head baby Jesus
MASN annoys me as much as anything and I wish we owned more of it.
But in terms of economic impact on the team, I don’t think the current deal prevents us from contending. I also don’t know the length of that deal. Were the Nationals to be the driving ratings force of that contract, I’d have to believe that Lerners and the Nats would be starting to gain the leverage to alter that deal, much like the Capitals dislike their CSN deal that was negotiated while putting a losing product and probably undervalues their team now that it is putting on a winning product with rising ratings. That bad TV deal is not crippling the Caps and I don’t think the bad TV deal is crippling the Nats.
What is really necessary of course is for baseball to choose to go at TV revenue sharing as the big equalizer in the next CBA. Not gonna happen, but the safety in numbers of the small and midmarket teams never seems to have the political unity to go after the few teams with killer regional television entities.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Forever.
Therein lies the problem.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
This
The Nationals can’t really alter the deal, they gain ownership over time, but don’t ever gain control of MASN, or the ability to take the Nationals away from MASN. They can get more money when the contract is re-evaluated though that is determined by some sort of arbitration process I assume.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
The deal is no fun and it's a bad deal.
We’re going to have to learn to contend with the 25M plus peanuts we’re currently getting. After that great day in the sky happens and the Nats ratings are crushing the Orioles ratings, you hope that a situation arises where we can paint Angelos as evil incarnate and hold our nose and I them out at some ungodly figure.
In the long run, though, baseball should share television values more equitably across baseball. Once we learn to contend with our current situation, we will either have to leverage that contention to go from the 25M to the 30-40M we’ll then deserve within the current deal, hold our nose and buy them out, or become part of the growing line of people that argues that the current revenue sharing is a horrid, horrid, horrid consequence of baseball’s antritrust and judges stuff. Not only that, many of the congressman who have political control over whether that anti-trust continues would be direct or indirect season ticket holders of the franchise that would be debating this issues in the halls of Congress.
just sayin’
For the purposes of this discussion, I don’t think that the TV deal is the make or break thing about contention. Now after we contend, it’s the difference in us potentially building a Yankees style meganetwork that aligns us with the forces of evil.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Sure.
It would kill the Yankees. But it would strengthen baseball. Baseball found a way to get some revenue sharing out of the Yankees already. They could find a way to get more. Of course, they could also find a viable national product where all teams felt they could contend and all teams had viewers who contributed to the national audience. I’d imagine that ESPN, MLB Network, and Fox are national deals where there’s better equity in sharing. How many of us watch those national games? More equity can result in better national deals with logical sharing under the current status or people can unite and take on the Yankees.
It’s not that it would kill the Yankees that’s the problem. It’s that it would hurt the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Mets, Phillies, Cubs and a bunch of other major market teams. There’s an alliance possible between the player’s union (which should want more teams in the market for free agency) and the low market teams that could help challenge the big market teams in a future CBA. The problem is that the players and the mid to lower market teams don’t see this, and many of the middle market teams have delusional dreams that align them with the big market teams.
Expecting the Washington Nationals to become suddently a massive TV draw in the middle of Redskins Nation, resurgent Caps, and resurgent Wizards is optimistic but possible. I still would hope that our franchise values would support the greater equity sides of this given the onerous start we’ve had on the TV side.
(I’d like to claim originality for these views. Most of them are from the “10 Wars of Baseball” articles in the Bill James Historical Abstract.)
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
I’m not against it, I just don’t think its possible. I think there is pretty much total revenue sharing with the national television deals I think the best way to even out revenue is to try to get more games on national TV, but this may not be possible. Besides the middle market teams having delusions of being big market, I’m sure there is a faction within the Players Association that likes having a team like the Yankees out there that overpays for everyone.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
I think the nats really could become a large TV Draw.
If they were on an easy to find station. They play during the middle of the summer, when there are tourists, and little to nothing else to watch. Why couldn’t they become a large draw if they’re good? I watched 60-70 Caps games last year because they were entertaining, and a way better way to spend my time then doing HW. Why can’t the nats do that?
I don't think that this is the biggest problem, either.
Everyone who wants to watch the Nats has figured out how to find the station when Strasburg pitches and could find it again on days when he doesn’t pitch. Probably the ceiling of the TV audience right now is what 85-90% of the Strasburg audience over 162 games?
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Sadly, they were on MASN 2 for Strasburg's first start.
They will be on MASN2 for another Strasburg start at some point. People will learn to find it, and while I think that there’s a small percentage that are frustrated with either the location or quality of the broadcasts, I don’t think that’s what’s holding MASN back but so much. I think that it’s the quality of the team they put on the field and I don’t think the MASN deal is taking that much money away from us while we’re not a contender. And even then, if the Orioles also contend it’s still not taking but so much away from us. The problem is if the Nats drive the bus of MASN while still having an onerous deal. We’re so far away from that glorious day, that harping on MASN doesn’t really affect growth of team discussions.
On the other hand, it does fuel my dislike/hatred of the Orioles and the wishy washy folks who try to root for both teams are fans I hope to convert should we contend. And it can fuel my dislike of Dibs and Debbie at times too.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
I don't know and it's not high on my list of thing I want to know about.
I would imagine both are astronomically low and that getting 25M for whatever our ratings are is not a bad deal in the present. It limits our ability to get into the Phillies high rent district, but it’s not killing our efforts to make steady improvement either.
I believe that the season ticket base can be improved and that’s ultimately what will drive team revenue. You can build the base in DC, especially between the end of the winter sports playoff runs and the start of the Redskins season. And after you build that base, there’s enough disposable income to raise ticket prices should you actually contend.
Season ticket base is the concern for the Nats more than the TV networks, which is why I am very appreciative of hearing just how much season ticket holders and folks who sit in better seats than the grandstands desire Dunn and how it may affect their desires for season tickets. Being deaf to the ears of season ticket holders who were tired of the spend, spend, spend of the ’Skins is part of what has killed their seemingly bottomless supply of Club Season Ticket holders.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Espinosa is not ready, Rizzo doesn't bring guys from AA to the Majors
I doubt Espinosa is ready before the allstar break 2011
Aim for the head baby Jesus
Agreed
The only way I see it happening is if he grabs a starting job in spring training and refuses to let it go. That happens, but it’s not something to bet on. If he’s not starting the team will want to have him playing every day for Syracuse until he is ready.
Special prospects make the jump from AA to the show.
Is Danny that? Who knows…
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
I firmly believe the Nationals will be in the $80M + salary range within the next couple of years
They will have to spend if they want to continue with the plan. I agree that Rizzo probably thinks he can resign Dunn else he would have traded him, and I also agree with BLS that by not signing him before the deadline they may have upped Dunn’s price. One thing not mentioned here is the status of the remaining draft picks. I’m sure Rizzo/Kasten/Lerners et al are very interested in how much they will have to spend to secure Harper’s services. It won’t be cheap. And, to be honest, there is a distinct possibility that he won’t sign — if that happens then the wallet will open wide for Dunn.
I really doubt that the Nats got offered players that will be “good” in the next few years for Dunn. If the rumors had any basis in fact whatsoever, then the best they were offered was Edwin Jackson and he’s not anyone to get excited about (he’s right on par with a host of other back-end starters the Nationals already control). If they couldn’t even get the vastly overrated Gordon Beckham for Dunn, they surely couldn’t get anyone else that could fill two holes in the Nats’ lineup.
I know the baseball world is in shock and disbelief that the Expos/Nats were not willing to accept their traditional assigned roles as feeders for the big ballclubs: too bad for them. They will soon be even more surprised to learn that the Nats will be willing to pay big bucks to join the group of elite teams of the league.
Rob
"Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection." -- Red Smith
by RobBobS on Aug 5, 2010 10:19 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I think the amount Harper will sign for is vastly overrated.
It will a bit a lot— perhaps more than Strassy— but realize that he has no leverage (considering he was the trailblazer who cut high school early to go to CSN). He’ll heed the cautionary tale of James Paxton and sign, and I think Rizzo knows this. Plus his contract won’t be an albatross, and will only be a minor albatross should be fail.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
I know the baseball world is in shock and disbelief that the Expos/Nats were not willing to accept their traditional assigned roles as feeders for the big ballclubs: too bad for them. They will soon be even more surprised to learn that the Nats will be willing to pay big bucks to join the group of elite teams of the league
Well said. You’ve earned a big old +1 from me.
I will gladly eat crow if Brandon Jones does well for the 49ers in 2010.
by Andrew Davidson on Aug 5, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Hold up.
If they couldn’t even get the vastly overrated Gordon Beckham for Dunn, they surely couldn’t get anyone else that could fill two holes in the Nats’ lineup.
Just wait for Ozzie Guillen to get pissed at him. Then he gets traded easy. Ala Nick Swisher, Javy Vazquez, Jim Thome walking in FA and not even being offered a contract by the Sox, etc.
Needs moar dingerz.
Dagger!
Willingham for Beckham next deadline if we’re not in contention.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Sadly, Willingham has a way of regressing in the second half I think.
I hope that he’s just in a slump that he’ll break out of right now. He was certainly all-star caliber before the break but has fallen off significantly after the break.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
The argument could certainly be made
That considering salary, club control, and upside, Daniel Hudson (who the White Sox were rumored to be dangling along with an offensive prospect… and later traded with another one of their top ten prospects [albeit, a weak farm system] in Holmberg for Jackson…. presumably under the assumption that Jackson would make the Nats more likely to move Dunn) was a far better fit than Edwin Jackson would ever have been. Is he better than Jackson right now from a performance standpoint? Probably not, but they’ll be awfully close the rest of this season.
It’s clear that Rizzo must not have gotten an offer that was a better package than what the White Sox had offered. Still, while the speculated White Sox offers weren’t exactly spectacular, they were offering the Nationals two “good” players, one with the potential to have about as much value in the next few years as Dunn (Hudson’s presumed impact on the rotation), and the fact that the Diamondbacks went out and spent with Hudson and another decent (C+) level prospect to get Jackson to flip to the Nats in a presumed package means that they probably could have gotten a third player who could have been valuable down the road (maybe Holmberg?) for two months worth of Adam Dunn.
My opinion about Daniel Hudson is probably higher than many of you, and it’s obviously higher than Mike Rizzo’s.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
To clarify
I’d have been happy had they gotten Hudson and some prospects. I’d have been disappointed had they gotten Jackson and one prospect.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1
I think the only difference between me and you on this one is that I can be happy with status quo and even an expensive Dunn contract, too.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
-1
just kidding about the minus 1 of course. Just wanted to say this: if the D-Backs didn’t get Hudson, he wouldn’t have dazzled against the Mets so soon in his NL career. On the downside, he could’ve been doing that for several years to come in a Nats uniform.
Overall, I agree completely. I would’ve been happy with Hudson and prospects (or just Hudson and 1 prospect: Viciedo). Getting Jackson and just one prosepct in return would’ve been yucky (for lack of a better word).
I will gladly eat crow if Brandon Jones does well for the 49ers in 2010.
by Andrew Davidson on Aug 5, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I really don't think that's it.
I think that Rizzo’s opinion of his current pitching assets is higher than many of ours. He probably believes that we’re closer to competitive pitching than many of us do. And whether he does or does not, he’d probably love to see two of his higher profile acquisitions, Maya and Marquis, get every chancet for that third and 4th starter status. Marquis and too a lesser extent Maya being rotation fails next year would not reflect very highly on Mr. Rizzo’s long term value as a GM. Just like we’re married to Nyjer for at least the end of this year, we’re probably married to Marquis next year as one of those 5 rotation slots and Maya will get a fair amount of rope too, I believe.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Where we (and I say we on the whole... not responding to this particular comment) disagree on Hudson isn't the ceiling.... It's the floor
I’ve seen many mentions of the fact (and I do feel it’s a fact) that Hudson will never become an ace. Given his production in the minors, his composure, and his general stuff, here’s what I look at when I see Dan Hudson:
Absolute Ace (top 5-10 pitcher in the majors): 0%
Number One Starter: <5%
Number Two Starter: <20%
Number Three Starter: 60%
Number Four Starter: 75%
Number Five Starter: 95%
Again, given that the White Sox gave up Hudson and a moderately valuable asset from their farm system to get Jackson… and then threw a tantrum because they thought Jackson would get them Dunn, the belief has to be that the Nats would have received Hudson and another player(s) of equal or better value than David Holmberg… widely considered another one of their top ten prospects. As Andrew Davidson points out above, my preference would have been Viciedo as well, though his name was excluded from the list that came out that included Hudson and one of the following (Tyler Flowers, Jordan Danks, Brett Morel). Perhaps this was the sticking point. Who knows?
The fact of the matter is that the Nats currently have two starting pitchers in the organization who are better long-term assets than Daniel Hudson would have been, both in terms of immediate likely production at the big league level and in terms of cost efficiency.
No…. he’s not going to be an ace for anyone. No… he’s probably not even going to be a #2 starter for anyone. The chances are better than average that he’s going to be a quality third starter and astronomically high that he’s going to be a quality big league rotation regular. He’s there already.
Going to the draft picks (if they can’t sign Dunn) may well get the Nats a guy with a better ceiling, but he won’t have nearly as high a floor as Hudson does.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
When are deals about the floor though?
It’s definitely nice to hedge, but if we’re ambitious, I’m more worried about striking gold than playing it safe.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Deals are about the floor....
When you’re considering that the alternative is taking a gamble on two draft picks.
There is some upside in Hudson, and it’s probable that he’s a number three starter. I guess we disagree that getting a number three starter (for the league minimum) and another player whose floor is high enough so that you can pretty much assure he’ll perform above replacement level in the big leagues quickly, who also offers more upside than that (even if it’s below superstar level) should have been enough…. again, at the league minimum for both players.
If the reported offers of Hudson and Tyler Flowers (should be ready to immediately provide replacement level or better performance at C or 1b, since it would have been open), Jordan Danks (highest ceiling of the three… plays a position of need as an outfielder who can handle all three positions. Danks’ immediate floor is the lowest of the three), or Brett Morel (plays a position that the Nats obviously have occupied. The question would be whether he could move to second base. His bat doesn’t look like it would play at first) were true, those offers would have pretty much fit what I brought up above.
In regards to all three, I’d say that Dayan Viciedo’s floor is a bit higher (already at the big league level, and fairly productive). I’m not so sure I’d say his ceiling is higher (particularly in relation to Danks). So yeah… you want upside back when you’re dealing for prospects, but getting guys back that are more likely to at least contribute is vastly important as well.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't disagree if it's Hudson + another developing B-/B guy, but I don't think it was ever that.
I don’t know their system well enough to comment outside of guy’s I’ve observed in Charlotte, but I do know enough about Vicedo and Hudson to say that both would have needed a complimentary piece to make a deal truly worth while and obvious.
I think the vast difference in our perceptions is that you assume that I don’t consider the floor in the ceiling return, but in a sense I’m assuming the floor is that they are 25-man roster material.
My premise is that if we’re worried about the worst we can get in production from our trade returns, it’s not worth the trade.
The trade calculus will obviously consider the worst-possible returns, but when are we going to get out of the conservative investment mindset and work with a blue-chipper?
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
And if deals are about the floor when the alternative is draft picks
Give me the draft picks. I’ll take Mike Trout (1-25) and (sand-44) Tanner Scheppers any day over Mr. Hudson.
Ultimately, it’s Rizzo’s job to build the best team possible. I’m of the opinion that if you trade one of your cornerstone players (I’ll refrain from calling him a franchise player), you get something of potential equal impact in return. Considering there was demand, you command a equally demanding return. Hudson will never be that.
Do I expect a Smoak (who a person I know calls “nasty”)? No. But I would expect a similar splash for Dunn, someone in the mold of Wade Davis.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
I think getting beyond Hudson for Dunn straight up...
…starts to get extremely speculative. That may have on the table at one point. Once Peavy went down and Hudson showed that he wasn’t going to get clocked in the big leagues immediately, Hudson’s value should have increased at least a little bit, and I imagine that it was harder to get the ChiSox to agree on much more in the way of supplementary prospects.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Glad to see specifics on your position and expectations on Hudson.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Reading again, my thoughts
I absolutely disagree with your good pieces for a great piece analysis. If our best piece we could have received was Daniel Hudson— who really lacks the upside I would desire in a piece in a Dunn-return— then we wouldn’t have received any present or future surplus value for the trade.
Not everyone strikes it rich by trading Victor Zambrano for Kazmir, or Kazmir for Sean Rodriguez, or finding Ben Zobrist out of nowhere. We wouldn’t have struck it rich in most deals.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
He’s not arguing that we would have struck it rich in the deal. He’s believing that Dunn’s value is replaceable in a variety of ways if you invest the money that it’s going to cost to resign him. There are shorter term deals to some of the other 1B on the market plus a run at a guy like DeRosa who you like for the rotation. Or if everyone loves Michael Morse so much, give him a run at 1B, give Marrero a run at 1B if he fails, and then if those guys fail contention should be a 2012 goal anyway and they make a run at another 1B in the market next go round with someone like Fielder.
The trade Dunn argument centers on two things:
1) If you have 15 mil to allocate elsewhere, can you use it to fill Dunn’s value? There’s a pretty good chance you can if you feel that free agents will sign here.
2) Is the value of Dan Hudson (or a similar piece we could have received back) better than the supplementary picks that we get back if Dunn leaves or was traded. I feel that Hudson definitely was and that’s why I would have had no problem had Dunn been traded.
I’m coming at this from hopefully objective fan position with growing familiarity with the league and a large degree of familiarity with the farm, and I believe you are too.
My deal is that I was with bluelineswinger originally and rooting for him to get traded. Rizzo’s position and the position of fans brought me to neutral, and I’m trying not to get but so high or so low on FO moves unless they are clear winners like Maya and Ramos. And even then, I’m trying to be positive to high on the process while not emotionally getting attached to results. I’m a fan, though, as I believe bluelineswinger is so I try to be as supportive as I can be about the moves we’ve made and the consensus among the community.
Objectively, trading Dunn makes sense to me and if I’m being honest probably makes more sense if Dan Hudson’s the centerpiece of the deal you’re getting back. But it’s a heck of a lot more fun to keep him, and I’m going to enjoy the fun until he’s signed or until he turns into a pumpkin.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
I get the surplus value argument
But it’s as simple as saying what Rizzo said— “40-100 guys don’t fall out of trees”. Perhaps we’d be free from Dunn’s $12M commitment, but: Hudson isn’t that special, and we wouldn’t find adequate replacements for the sum of $12M.
There is no free agent market for 2B, and the marginal upgrades for our other weak positions might not have been there with the money offset from Dunn’s departure. If Gordon Beckham and another C+ came in a trade, then I’d mull it. Otherwise trading Dunn and a franchise cornerstone (albeit a rental) makes no sense.
I’ll take the two picks knowing I can draft players who have more potential than Hudson.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
I'm a bit confused by your logic here, though.
On the one hand, you’re saying that DeLaRosa or another quality starter is a necessary upgrade over the current rotation pieces. On the other hand, you’re saying that there isn’t a way to replace Dunn’s value. WAR is WAR to me. You can replace hitting with pitching from a WAR standpoint. If you lose Dunn’s WAR, you invest more in the pitching hole that you’ve identified as necessary.
I think that you’re trying to say that you really, really like the picks more than Hudson. Zimmermann the best pick that we got back from the Soriano walk was signed in June 2007. As of August 2010, he has done very little for this team besides give us 91.1 IP of .6WAR. If we sign those two picks, we’d be jumping for joy if we get the return of Zimmermann who contributed nothing in 2007, nothing in 2008, .6 WAR in 2009. So if we sign a Zimmermann this time around there’s good chance we get nothing in 2011, nothing in 2012, and not very much in 2013 when the prospect is maturing. I don’t care very much at all for what someone offers us post 2013 when Zimmerman has to resign.
Hudson has got to project as at 1-2 WAR player for the next 3 years if he’s able to pitch in the big leagues right now. Yes, he doesn’t have but so high a ceiling, but I could live with a staff that had a 1 starter, a 2 starter in Jordan Zimmermann or a free agent and three legit 3 starters to try to contend. It’s the back end of the rotations of the Phillies, Mets and to some extent the Braves (Lowe and Kawakami and whatever else don’t blow me away) that are an opportunity to gain on the division.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
I would invest the time into looking at the stats, but I'm too lazy. Anyway...
The traditional point here is that trading Dunn for Hudson is a statement and resignation of perpetual mediocrity. Hudson has very little ceiling to me, and I think Rizzo realizes that he’d need to get a Cliff Lee-haul if a trade were to have happened.
We have all of the leverage with Dunn, and every reason to keep him. And anyway, I’ve been harping for De La Rosa forever with or without Dunn, so that doesn’t add to my sum value argument.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
I don't think that it would have been a statement of perpetual mediocrity.
It would have been a statement that we don’t think we can contend in 2011 but we’re going to be patient and strategic about how we contend in 2012/2013. As it stands right now, Marquis will likely slot into the rotation next year (hold your noses, folks!) and be a passable starter. Or Livo will. Or both of them. Take your pick. Either one of them would be dangerous to rely on for 2012. I don’t know what Marquis will be next year but I doubt it’s going to be worth 7.5M or offering him arbitration for picks. Every day with Livo is a wonderful day that could end solid production at a moment’s notice. Hudson becomes the improvement on both that you count on for 2012 at a price that is more affordable than either.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Allen is comfy and spoiled with Wade Davis as a 5 starter.
I could never accept Marquis or Hudson as passable, maybe unless we’re good enough to have Hudson as our 5.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
The NL east is good but not great
A team could definitely win it with an extremely mediocre 5 starter
Aim for the head baby Jesus
Yep. Phillies don't have depth in their rotation and have serious questions in the bullpen.
There offense is light out though and that covers a lot of their other weaknesses. The Mets back end haven’t been great either and they have maanged to hang around despite having an offense that is worse than ours is. Strasburg, Zimmermann and three 3rd starters works for me if it’s possible.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
And 5th starters don't pitch in the playoffs
I’m fine with the jumble of crap we have at number 5, the problem is we have about 6 of them and they been our 3-5 all year, (or 2-5)
Aim for the head baby Jesus
It's a testament to the strength of the team though if the quality is there.
And it adds more bullpen arms.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Agreed, but its a luxury
Davis will be damn good out of the bullpen in the playoffs
Aim for the head baby Jesus
Most non-AL East teams have extremely mediocre 5th starters
There’s always injury attrition when it comes to starting pitching, and its not a position you spend a lot of money on.
Needs moar dingerz.
True
But it’s a point we should strive for— the successful teams do have good rotations, for the most part. It’s like envying that Giants rotation.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
I'm gonna have to agree with ajk9hy
Hudson will never be an ace…if you’re going to trade a 40 HR/100 RBI guy, I want at least a guy who projects as a number 2 starter and a couple guys to add to the system. Hudson just isn’t that guy (at least from the couple of times I’ve seen him).
Contenders don’t let their biggest bat in the lineup walk away when they have nothing suitable to replace him, except when they know they’re getting a huge haul of prospects.
I’m not really trying to compare Dunn and Mark Teixeira, but look at what the Rangers did with him. They were disinterested in re-signing him, and they reloaded their farm system and acquired a great haul of major league-ready players. That’s how you deal away a star.
The Rays would never reup with a guy like Dunn.
You love them to pieces. Do you honestly think the Rays would ever reup on guy like Dunn? Shoot, I’d be shocked if the Rays reup on Crawford (which is parallel to reupping on Dunn in a lot of ways except they have Jennings to fill in) or Pena (admittedly not as value) and they won’t be reupping with their starters as they approach arbitration and free agency.
While you want us to reup with Dunn, do you want the Rays to reup with Crawford? I’d imagine that the answer is no and I’d imagine that the reason why is because you’ve been watching Desmond Jennings (or whatever their stud outfield prospect’s name is) and believe he can replace. If Chris Marrero was Desmond Jennings, I bet you wouldn’t be arguing for us to resign Dunn as strongly. One of things I think that bluelineswinger and I both believe is that the status of your minors shouldn’t but so heavily impact whether you sign or resign guys in Dunn’s scenario. The “we don’t have anybody to replace Dunn at 1B” thing is not something that I go with too much. If you don’t, then your minors aren’t that great, and I don’t think that our minors are that great (as you’ve seen in stuff like the Sickels 2013 post that I put up). Replenishing our high end minors with legit starting pitching and position players is always worthwhile and Rizzo too would have done that if he could have gotten Beckham from the ChiSox.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
I think every Rays fans would love to re-up CC if we could-- he's the best LF in the game.
It’s just that we can’t, and Rays fans can accept that and know we have a ready-made replacement in Jennings. Same deal with Werth and Domonic Brown.
I know the ready-made replacement shouldn’t mean much, but our return IMO should at least be for a guy who has the upside of who we are giving up, and Hudson wasn’t that. That’s why Rizzo probably didn’t pull the trigger.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Agree on the Rays, but don't really think this is true:
Same deal with Werth and Domonic Brown.
Then wait before extending Ryan Howard (wouldn’t have hit FA till after 2011 anyway), and see if you could get him cheaper or get a different guy for cheaper.
Or let him test the market with Albert Pujols/Prince Fielder/Adrian Gonzalez on it as well. No way he signs for 125MM if that were to happen. He’s the 4th best of the 4.
Needs moar dingerz.
I couldn't justify $125M on him
So I defer on comment there
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Thank god we're not the Phillies there.
I don’t know whether signing him affordably before he showed he could play 1B, trading him, or signing him now or during the offseason was the best move. I do know that backing up a truck of money to make him the happiest man on the earth like the Phillies did was an error that could balloon to almost Sorinaoesque proportions. While our window starts in 2012, I feel that the Phillies starts to close in 2013 unless they truly feel that they can spend with the Yankees.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
"signing him affordably"
should read “singning Dunn affordably”
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
You know that they can't because you know that they can't up the payroll
Okay. I get that.
Are you still satisfied with the picks? That’s important to me. I can gamble with Rizzo right now because the jury’s still out. If we get nothing for Dunn but the picks, then I will be one not very happy hombre.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
I'm obviously banking on Rizzo cashing in on the picks
But the jury is still out there and I’ll trust his judgement on picking his guys.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
There's where agree to disagree is...
…and I believe that you’re still in the minority on this one. We lost Dunn and we got……“The wonderful 2 top 50 picks in the draft from college! C’mon folks. That NL home run leader who just walked wasn’t nothing compared to these guys!” You’ve got to wait until the Strasburg bump fades and maybe even the optimistic He Who Shall Not Be Named bump fades while hoping Zimmerman sticks around if you’re banking on the picks.
Noone would like Hudson that much, but if you were able to include Ramos and Hudson up as part of a 75-82 win team next year, people would still be down with the team, especially if He Who Shall Not Be Named is building buzz in the minors for an eagerly awaited appearnce in 2012.
Is there anyone else participating in this discussion who would be glad that we didn’t trade Dunn if all that we’re left with is the picks?
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
That depends on what was actually offered
I think the picks are better than Hudson alone, I think resigning is much better than either
Aim for the head baby Jesus
I like this logic
Haha, I watch too much college baseball to be unbiased
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
I get it. ;-)
People have their biases and it’s fun kind of learning where folks have their biases. You would probably especially desiring of the picks if one of them was say one of your favorite guys that you’ve seen play for or against Virginia in the ACC that you have great familiarity with. Then you could say, “I scouted the next franchise player on the Nats first! And I graded him a 65! And the scouts graded him a 55! I am the genius!”
Correct me where I’m wrong. You dig the college kids and the draft and that’s fine. Some folks have loyalties to Morgan that are against the tide. Mine is to Miguel Batista if you take everything I write for The Miguel Batista Fan Club seriously.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Haha I guess
Although I’m all for making the deal if it’s right. But for a guy with Dunn’s quality, I would like a guy I could build around in return. I have faith that Rizzo could find those guys in the draft— and at the very least, it’s all his call.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
I ain't trying to criticize really.
I hope that you’re right if we don’t get him signed. I’m also not trying to paint the extreme side of the sign the picks side to make your views look less than worthy. What would be your expectations for success from the picks if we did sign them? Where would they have to rank on national rankings by the end of year 1? When could we expect them to make the majors and at what level?
That’s a healthier way for me to go than just joking your college knowledge to try to get folks to see me as more objective.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Haha I didn't think you were criticizing, no bigs
I just think there’s value in finding our own guy. The probably that they’ll turn out good isn’t necessarily high, but the probably that they will can be just as good.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Since you're rigorous about defending your views...
…any possibility you could offer the percentage probability on that one?
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
So you like playing prospect roulette, correct?
You seem to know that there’s almost zippo chance of Hudson magically turning into a 1 or 2 starter but you believe that there’s a remote possibility that you can get a 1 or 2 starter or position player cornerstone from the draft, right?
I’d be very interested to learn about the draft history of some of the Rays core pieces and how much of that is the conventional wisdom (they were always drafting top 5 and they just drafted there well) vs. they’ve found ways to outsmart the probabilities elsewhere in the top 5 rounds of the draft.
I tend to believe Rizzo sides with you by the way and has immense faith in his ability to double or triple those percentages of hits with his superior skill and likely new empowerment to go with more overslot guys and internationals.
Maya is 1/3 of altering the development equations. Key stuff out of the academy and successful overslot signings are the other 2/3.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Rizzo is also a ridiculously good scout
as demonstrated in his time with the Diamondbacks. Yes, he had high picks, but nearly as much as he did with the Rays.
The only top 10 pick I can think of is Justin Upton. But guys like Mark Reynolds, Conor Jackson, Webb, Quentin, Scherzer, Carlos Gonzalez, Brett Anderson, etc. were all Rizzo draftees, IIRC, in a short period of time.
Needs moar dingerz.
Piggybacking, with the Rays
The first rounders on the squad that we drafted (that I can think of) are Longo, Upton, Niemann, and David Price. Otherwise the rest of the team are pieces from the lower rounds.
Sure, their ETA may be delayed (James Shields took 5 years, but was a 16th rounder), but they can be just as good.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Some homegrown Rays
Crawford was a second rounder in 1997… albeit, with the first pick of the second round
Brignac was a first rounder in 2004… also the top pick of the round
Shields was a nice find in the 16th round
Sonnanstine was a 13th rounder as well, though he hasn’t had nearly the impact
Davis was a third rounder
Most of the other current Rays were acquisitions. Guys like Pena (10th overall in 1997) and Garza (25th overall in 2005) came from other organizations, but were high picks. Guys like Zobrist and Bartlett came from outside the organization.
They did trade one of their more prominent first round picks (Delmon Young) to acquire Garza and Bartlett, so there’s a big one missing.
Sure, their ETA may be delayed (James Shields took 5 years, but was a 16th rounder), but they can be just as good.
And won’t be contributing by the time Zimmerman’s contract is up.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
True
Rays also did draft Baldelli and Josh Hamilton. Bad luck there
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Hamilton really was just luck
He didn’t have the drug issues when he was drafted. The last few seasons have obviously shown that they weren’t wrong about his talent
Aim for the head baby Jesus
Payroll data...
…and qualitative drafting data for some of the comparable effective drafting of teams simliar to the Nats payroll wise will add more helpful info to the discussion. Thanks for your beginning contributions above.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
You're right.
And sometimes the prospects game is worth playing. It affects the judgement of the top pick we use (hopefully Anthony Rendon in my book) and lets us take risks and gives us flexibility with lower picks.
There are a lot of really good arms in next year’s draft, and picks may do us good there (if we trim our fat).
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
This one is supplementary thread worthy for a poll plus roll call.
It’s kind of an issue where you’d like to get people on record so that the next time we have one of these discussions (doomsday scenario when we’re trying to unload Willingham next year if we don’t improve next year), those who are right either way will have credibility. For the record, I was on the keep Soriano at the deadline side of the fence ironically. I didn’t really understand prospects at that time, and I loved Soriano’s game as the only watchable part of that team. This team has enough other reasons for me to watch.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
I think the Rays should re-sign Carl Crawford
I’m skeptical about Jennings…I think people get hung up on the fact that he’s fast, so he must be as good as Crawford.
I think Crawford has improved a lot at the plate the last two years, a lot more than people give him credit for.
Also he’s the best defensive outfielder in the game; Jennings would be a big step down there, in my opinion
We can't.
And Jennings is all he is made out to be. He is special— perhaps not CC, but he’ll be close.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Until he went down with his injury this year...
Marquis was actually a passable 5th starter. The Nationals unfortunately acquired him just as he had the first major injury and DL stint of his career.
Yeah, I’m the 12th juror on the Marquis albatross trial. I’m not ready to vote him guilty yet.
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"--The Brain
+1
You saw enough of him on the Cubs to appreciate his talent of mediocrity. I’m with you on this one. Certainly not a good contract already and no way he’s worth 15M over two, but there’s something of value still there if we keep our expectations reasonable.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Just for the record
I have no trouble accepting bluelineswinger as a fan; you don’t need to read the backstory in the OP to feel his desire to see the Nationals prosper on the diamond. Just because he disagrees with a move/non-move doesn’t make him a non-fan. Although where he disagrees with me he is, sadly, somewhat misguided :-D
And SD your bona fides are beyond reproach :-)
I don't think anyone calls into question bluelineswinger's fandom.
His willingness to invest so much of his time, passion, and soul into this team and these pieces makes him an essential member of our community and I’d be shocked if any member here questions his loyalty.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
I know - was responding to/agreeing with this
I’m a fan, though, as I believe bluelineswinger is
Personally, I'm a huge Dunn fan.
He’s one of the only reasons I go to the games. If they traded him, I would probably not go to any more games for at least a couple of years.
I sniff a Wahoo around here...
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Don't think you're alone there, TW, but Stras is fun to watch...
Zimm too, buy sign Dunn for sure.
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Aug 5, 2010 11:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Rizz didnt want a volume trade
nor did I. You could probably sign 7 or 8 Felipe Lopez’s and their sum value would be about the same as Dunn’s but there’s only 25 that you can dress to play. Dunn fields his position well enough for me (actually a lot better than well enough for me) considering that if everyone else around the infield never made a bad throw, Dunn would look like the best 1B (not realistic though). His offense speaks for itself. To me, since there’s no one player that can replace Dunn, he shouldnt have been traded. The nationals have a volume of players out there but not that many that fully justify their roster spot without a major issue. Dunn has no major issue to me. Pretty much anybody that has been mentioned in a trade for him is pretty suspect at justifying a roster spot on a good team
And my addendum: sum value != marginal value
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
It wasn't going to be a volume trade.
It was going to be a 3rd starter kind of pitcher in Hudson for Dunn.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Eh the more I think about it, Hudson was pretty solid with Charlotte
Something about him doesn’t strike me though. Maybe if they gave us Vicedo (who we could play around with position-wise) and a toolsy project, I’d relent.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
We're differing on the package now which seems to be outside of our expertise perhaps.
What I’m saying is that there did seem to be a fair value package out there. There wasn’t a Rizzo value package, though, and now we’re all gambling with Rizzo. This is not a bad situation necessarily. But I think it’s the point of bluelineswinger’s argument that we’re all gambling with Rizzo now.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
In Rizzo we trust.
And fair market value isn’t necessarily what we want. Fair market value is Lee for Smoak. Are we getting a return comparable to that category, eh, I don’t quite know.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
My only problem with basing my analysis of undone (unDunn?) trades
Is that we don’t know what was offered. Period. We can try to guess through the hazy forest of spin and speculation, but there is no way to be sure what was offered. What we know is that whatever was offered wasn’t enough for Rizzo. Rizzo is a respected professional in the field, I go with his judgment.
I think that it's safe to say that we could have gotten Hudson if we wanted Hudson...
…since Hudson was actually traded from the White Sox and Kenny Williams through a temper tantrum when we he couldn’t flip Jackson for Dunn. it would be extremely amusing to watch Kenny Williams backpedal faster than a speeding bullet and claim credit for the amazing EJackson move should he prove to be their number 2 starter for the next year and half, though. In that event, I hope the ChiSox fall flat on their faces still, though. ChiSox fans are the biggest group behind the “Rizzo is an idiot!” stuff and I don’t appreciate that the President has the gall to so openly support them while he’s in DC. It sends a bad precedent for other transients who might like to root for the Nats.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
I’ve been away on vacation for a while and getting back on this site and trying to follow this thread without my sea legs, while informative. is making me a bit dizzy….
I can’t really add anything to this wide ranging conversation other then to say that I tend to agree with what DCGuy says above – that unless we know what was offered it’s impossible to grade Rizzo.
The other wild card that effects how the team improves is obviously next years budget, and this is a mystery that puts fans in the dark too .
Kasten has said all along that when the team’s development reaches a certain level (i.e. when they have a certain core of players in place) that ownership will spend the money necessary to add other pieces (through free agency) that will allow them to be competitive with the elite teams in the league. We’ll see.
As a fan, I’m glad they held on to Dunn. I hear and understand the reasoning of those that would like to have seen him moved but as for me I’ll stick to what I see as pretty close to a sure thing (read 40/100) (and PS a lovable galoot, to boot). Getting prospects (which ones we don’t know) in return is too much a roll of the dice for my taste at this point in time.
In short, I like our chances of getting to the next level more if the Nats have the guy that blows the big bubbles.
Now if you will excuse me I need to take some more Dramamine
It'll be cool having you back for the stretch run Perry
Frankly, one Perry can beat back about 500 Philly fans. Next year’s budget will be carefully scrutinized for sure. But we’ll get a better sense of next year’s budget when we see what happens with the draft picks over the next two weeks. Cole and Harper won’t be cheap and signing or not signing those two picks at an affordable price will help them figure out what to do with Dunn. Not signing Harper certainly affects the window and team needs a bunch. You’re certainly more inclined to get into the offseason OF sweepstakes should Dunn walk if you don’t.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
I believe I said several times in the article
That we can’t really grade Rizzo here. We don’t know the exact pieces that were offered. I distinctly recall re-affirming that notion in the final paragraph. My assessment is as much that I’m disappointed that he didn’t strike a deal that could have been valuable and impact the franchise positively for years as anything else. Whether Rizzo did actually receive such an offer (but really was overvaluing Dunn), we can’t say. I’d like to trust his judgment, and we’ve seen a bunch of positives in his brief tenure.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the majority here agree that at least Hudson for Dunn straight up could have happened.
Hudson did actually move and the White Sox early stance was that anyone off of our current roster was fair game. Now whether you think Hudson for Dunn would have been a good trade or not is still really debatable. For bluelineswinger and me, the answer is probably yes. For the rest of the fans and me now that it hasn’t happened, the answer is probably no or yes determining which side of the bed I happen to wake up on. In true politician fashion, I constantly revise my assessments in the wake of changing popular sentiment.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
The White Sox are interested in signing Carlos Delgado
with Dunn on waivers, they have pretty much no chance of being able to trade for him (since they play in the AL).
They might as well bring back Dye
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
According to Jayson Stark
“Finally, we’re not sure exactly what it says about how the Nationals’ negotiations with Bryce Harper are going. But we’re hearing that when other clubs check in to ask about their talks with the No. 1 pick in the draft, the Nationals are already floating the hard line that if they don’t get Harper signed, they’d happily take the No. 2 overall pick next year in what’s viewed as a much deeper draft.
That’s not exactly your classic, upbeat, don’t-sweat-it-we’ll-get-him-signed kind of talk, considering the Nationals now have less than two weeks to get this deal done. But whether it’s spin or an indication that their negotiations with Scott Boras are in a danger zone, it’s one more sign that teams are prepared to hang tough with their picks, now that the prospect of some sort of slotting system looms in the next labor deal.
“I’ll say this,” said an official of one team. “Considering that [Harper] is 17 years old, there’s a good chance that No. 2 pick next year gets to the major leagues before Bryce Harper.”"
I really am not that concerned that Harper won’t be signed, but this is far from what I want to hear.
I wouldn't be too worried-- it's classic low-balling and leverage-playing.
Bryce Harper has no leverage because of the path he took to get here. We’ll sign him, and it won’t be as hefty as we thought.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
I also think he's going to sign...and not for nearly as much as is being speculated
but I think its a lot more likely he goes back to CSN than Strasburg was to go to Japan for a year, like Boras was threatening.
Sure, but college players play this game all of the time.
Bryce is like a rising senior. He has the leverage of going back to school, but his stock may never be higher. And considering Boras is his agent, and considering what he did to become draftable, he has to sign or else he busted.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Both sides are trying to build their face saving positions should things break down...
…but ultimately I expect him to sign. Now if they don’t sign him and Cole, we are going to be mercilessly criticized with reason on a whole bunch of fronts. Next year’s deep draft class probably hurts Bryce more than the CBA stuff in my opinion.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Everyone should be watching Cole
It would be a huge statement towards saying they are willing to spend the money to contend
Aim for the head baby Jesus
+1
I really don’t see the Harper negotiations breaking down. As ajk9hy mentions, he doesn’t have the most leverage in the world. He forewent his senior year in high school so that he could start his professional career a year earlier, and a deal will get done.
Signing Cole is a huge statement, and the Nats will focus all their efforts to get it done. If they do sign him, my guess would be that it will happen after they sign Harper. What Harper signs for will determine whether or not signing Cole is truly in the budget.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Cole's got to happen before Harper.
With Boras, you can’t be counting on Harper signing until 1 hour or less before the deadline. Plus, if you’re truly serious about improving through overslot guys, you shouldn’t let one pick affect the others. You get the best return you can on the draft each year within reason and then adjust other parts of your budget accordingly. If you believe in the guy enough to draft him overslot, you make every effort to sign him. Part of the reason I was kind of neutral on last year’s draft was that it seemed that the Strasburg signing adversely affected their other picks. Holder at where he was drafted was widely panned at the time and nothing he’s done since then really convinces me otherwise.
Draft aggressively and sign as many of them as possible until the picks demands get too outrageous. Hopefully, Cole is looking at what we are doing and realizing that there’s room in the farm for him to get promoted close to the bigs quickly if he signs and that he has a better chance to play for a contender now that they are making good moves and seem more determined to win. But the instant he signs he’s got to move instantly into the top 5 pitching prospects in the organization correct? I still forget that we haven’t signed Solis yet either and that’s got to get done as well.
Do you know our farm well enough to rank him in comparison to the other guys?
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Given that Strasburg and Storen will graduate from prospect status due to MLB service time/innings pitched
I would have to think that Cole or Solis may immediately jump to the head of the class. For immediate impact, Solis would be slotted higher. For potential ceiling, it would be A.J. Cole.
Eliminating Strasburg and Storen from the equation, you have to figure that the Nats’ top pitching prospects at this point are the Brad Meyers (even with the injury-plagued season) and A.J. Morris’ of the world. It’s hard to imagine Cole not immediately becoming the organization’s top pitching prospect.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess if you wanted, you could include some of the AAAA guys
Though I think Atilano, Martin, Stammen (definitely) and Detwiler (also definitely) have pitched enough innings to have graduated from prospect status as well. Maybe Aaron Thompson slots in somewhere, but he’s had a nightmarish season.
Tom Milone’s been nice from a production standpoint (3.05 ERA, 1.23 WHIP, 104:21 strikeout to walk ratio in 118 innings as a 23-year-old in AA…. strong in previous stints at the lower levels as well), but I don’t know much about his stuff. The low walk total and low HR total would suggest his command is good, and I’m sure he’ll move up their prospect lists.
A solid year from Brad Peacock, who recently got the call to AA, probably moves him up the list a bit as well. Neither was considered a Top 20 prospect in the system before the year began, though.
There are other guys with some talent down on the farm, but they’re probably fringe major leaguers in terms of stuff down the line…. Cole’s stuff isn’t that of a fringe major leaguer. Neither is Solis’. They’d be the top two.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Just put a note up, but so you now...
FOXSports.com’s Jon Morosi wrote today that a team has claimed Dunn….
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Aug 5, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
if I had to guess
I would say its probably Colorado blocking the Giants. The Rockies would have priority over San Fran because they have a worse record.
If I’m right (and I’m really just guessing), then all signs would point to Dunn remaining a Nat for the remainder of the year.
I'm questioning whether to bring out the Home Alone shocked face
I think I’m going to pass. My money would be on either Colorado or the Giants. I agree that the Rockies are close enough so that simply blocking the Giants would make sense to them. I would see the potential need for the Rockies, as neither Helton nor Hawpe (playing a lot of 1b lately) are the players they once were, but don’t think that they’d be willing to go all out to get him.
If he slipped by them to San Francisco, there’s a far better chance of a deal being worked. There’s a clear need and a great fit, and the Giants have many of the pieces in place to make a serious run at winning it all. They supposedly balked at Madison Bumgarner (with good reason) if/when Rizzo inquired about him. Like the White Sox, their farm system isn’t incredibly deep. They do have a potentially elite lower level pitching prospect in Zack Wheeler, though he’d be someone the Nats wouldn’t be likely to see for at least a few years.
The best complementary piece I could see would probably be AA OF Thomas Neal, who projects as a decent power/speed option with good on base skills.
Yeah… I’d want Bumgarner. I might settle for Wheeler and Neal if it came down to it.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
If you don't count Bumgarner, that's essentially their top two prospects...
I doubt Sabean would pull the trigger on that.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
If they offered Bumgarner...
…you’d have to do the deal. They aren’t, though, so this is just blowing smoke. Both the Rockies and Giants will want the privilege of negotiating with the Nats for 48 hours. I have attained special privileged access to the negotiations as they’ve begun:
“We have this pitching prospect on the farm who fits your….” “No!”
“There’s an excellent guy in Double..” “No!”
“Would you admit that you aren’t likely to….” “No!”
“Would you be willing to consider….” “No!”
“Would you like Bumgarner for D…..” “YES!!!!”
“Do you think we will trade Bumgarner for Dunn?” “[silence]”
“What is your favorite word in the English language?” “No!”
“Why do you engage in trade talks? Do you plan to ever say anthing but no?” “No!”
“Yes” “No!”
“Yes” “No!”
“Yes” No!"
“No!” “Yes! Hey, wait I see what you just did. That wasn’t very nice.”
“Neither are you!” “No!”
“Will you change your mind tomorrow?” “No!”
“Well, thank you very much. We’ll try to sign Carlos Delgado instead.” “No!”
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
I would streak the lawn if we got Bumgarner
Beats Hudson every day any day. There’s your “floor”, and there’s my upside.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
I really think you're reading into my floor comment like that's all I'm seeing
The upside is significant as well. Of course I’d rather have Bumgarner than Dan Hudson. Of course I’d rather have Wade Davis than Hudson. The fact of the matter is that the market Dunn was commanding apparently did not warrant those particular players.
In Hudson, they would have gotten a guy with a little upside (less than Bumgarner or Davis) but would be ready to contribute at the big league level (at worst…. floor) as a bottom of the rotation guy. At best, Hudson’s floor is probably in the same range that Davis and Bumgarner (two guys already contributing in that #5 role at the big league level) is in…. with considerably less upside.
Again, the fact of the matter is that Dunn apparently was NOT commanding these players. Given the situation the Nats are in, with Zimmerman under contract for three more years and a possible once in a generation talent in Stephen Strasburg under club control for six years, my feeling is that the Nats are in a position where it’s better to take a player who might not have quite the upside, but does have enough upside so that his acquisition is worth it over a guy with a little more upside who we probably won’t see until 2013 or 2014.
If they go for a big upside guy in the low minors who is years away, the chances improve astronomically that they lose Zimmerman in 2013 and replace him with whoever that player is. It’s kind of counterproductive.
FYI, Wheeler could be that guy.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm ignorant on this one...
…Can you explain:
FYI, Wheeler could be that guy.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Most feel that Wheeler has front of the rotation stuff
The fact of the matter, however, is that he’s a 20-year-old in the Sally League with 35 professional innings under his belt. There’s big upside, and there’s a significant chance that he could become a star down the road.
There’s also a fantastic chance that, given his current level and experience as a professional, 2013 could be an optimistic ETA.
So….. what I’m saying is that by focusing on a player who isn’t necessarily likely to contribute by 2013, what you’re risking doing is grabbing a potential star who may just end up as a replacement for Zimmerman (again, different position… but star for star).
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
My simple premise is that relinquishing Dunn for Hudson and filler would probably not make us better without some luck, IMO
If I saw a trade value calculation (BtBS) or something, I might be convinced. Otherwise, count me in the group that wants more for Dunn.
Should Dunn command only Hudson? No. Would he command Davis? Only if the Rays were desperate, which they weren’t.
In my ideal world, I’d say package a Hosmer-like player + Kila Ka’aihue return would do for Dunn.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Sure
Which would make sense to the Royals why? I know you’re just trying to bring equitable valued players up as an example, but I feel like being Captain Obvious!
Would I have traded Dunn for Hudson straight up? No.
Would I have traded him for Hudson and filler? Not unless one of those filler players was someone that I thought was a major sleeper.
Would I have traded him for the reported packages that were out there that included Hudson and another prospect that at least appeared to be a regular big league starter positionally? Probably. I’d have tried to see if I could do better first (which Rizzo presumably did), but if I wasn’t getting anything better, I’d have found the offer acceptable.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree to disagree...
Haha, fair enough. That other big league guy better have commanded our outfield for years to come though, or I’m going out for you.
(shameless Trout + Scheppers mention here)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Hey... I love Trout and Scheppers as much as the next guy
And by most accounts, Scheppers should reach the big leagues pretty soon as a (at least temporarily) reliever. Trout dominated the heck out of low A ball. He’s adjusting fairly well to A+ ball, and any type of decent performance there should be considered impressive… He’s still only 18, which makes him very young for the league.
Still, honest assessment. When does Mike Trout reach the big leagues? 2012? 2013? Maybe he gets there in the second half of 2011 if he continues to absolutely dominate once he gets a look at the high minors. Is he definitely going to be a star, or are there a bunch of obstacles to overcome? I feel he’s going to be fanastic, but don’t expect to see him get the call until mid-2012…. and I realize that, despite his considerable talents, there’s a chance that once he reaches the high minors and faces more (and better) breaking balls, he’s going to have some difficulty adjusting.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
*You're right
I guess I’m not so much concerned with ETA though— I hold the opinion that if we’re concerned about winning soon, that’d probably be with Dunn.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
The only problem I have with your argument is that
We don’t possess the White Sox’s rotation. Even though they are battered, they have Peavy, Danks, Floyd, and Buehrle, among others. Hudson slots in as an elite 4 or 5 because of what’s already in place, and that makes him valued.
My deal is that I would have taken a chance on a guy like Mat Latos last season— upside to be an ace, but rough and not necessarily considered a steady lower-end guy.
If worst comes to worst, again, I’m on record saying that I’ll take my Trout and Scheppers.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Fair enough
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree on that one, though. I’ll take the proven commodities every time, even if the gamble couldn’t quite pay off as handsomely.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough indeed!
I’m all for taking proven commodities too, but I guess it’ll all depend on whether or not Dunn signs, and the consequences of that process…
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
Milone's not even as solid as Meyers, probably.
Meyers not getting to Syracuse yet is a true tragedy, though. Had Meyers been healthy, he’d probably be in Syracuse and he’d be in the conversation to be high on the list even if he’s another one of these 3/4/5 guys.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Agreed on Meyers
And I haven’t seen Milone pitch, but those are some solid numbers at AA. At 23, it’s not like he’s old for the level or anything. I do feel that Meyers is more likely to break a AAAA stereotype than the guys we’ve seen in the big leagues (Atilano, Martin, Martis, etc.), and it’s definitely a shame that he can’t stay healthy this season.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to say, I've kind of slept on Milone this year.
I’ve followed Thompson much more closely and kind of remembered last year when Milone was producing in Potomac but was in Meyers’ shadow. I didn’t realize that he’s pretty much risen a level and duplicated his numbers at Potomac, a good sign that he might be able t handle Syracuse well. That’s good news because if he’s mastered the Eastern League than he should get a chance to start next year in Syracuse’s rotation, more bad news for the Chico/Martis/Martin/Atilano crew. For those guys the gig is almost up.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Joy to the people of Syracuse.
As they quest to take over the International League.
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)
We’re gonna cheer, cheer, cheer for the Chiefs. I really hope that they do take over the IL and we can get some prospects that are young up there. The reality is that the IL depends on how much you want to spend on the AAAA guys in my opinion. Whitesell was a core piece for the Chiefs this year and he had little value to us outside of being emergency to the emergency Dunn insurance.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Yeah.... That's kind of what I saw
I didn’t put him down as someone who is only performing this season. There’s some past success at the lower levels as well, and this year’s showing that he can sustain it a bit going forward. Again, never seen him pitch. Don’t know much about his stuff, pitch types, etc. I just see that he’s producing much like he has in the past.
by bluelineswinger on Aug 5, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
We’d really benefit from having someone with interest in DC on the ground in Harrisburg to get some kind of qualitative info posted consistently on the prospects. Www.nationalsprospects.com is starting to do that for Potomac. But we need that kind of stuff for Hagerstown and Harrisburg as well. When SBNation can hire correspondents we will conquer the world!
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
Sickels is currently working on updates on the progress of his Top 20 guys...
…for each organization last year. Milone was off the Top 20 last year but got honorable mention. Meyers was on as prospect No. 10 (overall includes position and pitchers) and was graded a C+. Meyers probably hasn’t improved that grade at all. Milone is probably up to a C+ at this point. Regardless, when he gets to the Nats I’ll mention it here, comment there, and see if I get any response back.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.
The CBA stuff won't even be in play in time for next year's draft, right?
Current CBA doesn’t expire until December of next year. I assume the next CBA would go into effect after the current one expires
Needs moar dingerz.
I believe that is the case.
Which is why the depth of the draft class next year is a bigger issue than anything else.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.

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