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Wire Taps: More Bryce Harper, Washington Nationals' 2010 Draft Class Talk.

If you'd recently read what is supposedly Bryce Harper's Facebook page, where he and the 3rd overall pick in the 2010 Draft Manny Machado (BAL) plot LeBron-Bosh-Wade-style to go back to school next year together at Harper's College of Southern Nevada rather than sign with their respective teams, (a plot which I've neglected to mention here thus far, because...c'mon, really? Facebook negotiating ploys?), you might believe there's a chance the no.1 overall pick isn't going to sign with the Washington Nationals. But even after MLB.com's Bill Ladson's article yesterday entitled, "Harper enrolls, but Nats still negotiating", which reported that the 17-year-old catcher-turned-outfielder had enrolled in classes at CSN, ESPN.com's Keith Law writes this morning in a feature article on his MLB Draft Blog entitled, "A crucial stretch for the Nationals", that, "...coming off an unbelievable spring that would be hard for him to top next year," faced with a strong class of college-age prospects eligible in 2011 and after all the trouble he went through to get himself picked first overall by the Nationals, Harper is, "...likely to sign for a figure that exceeds several teams' total draft budgets," which may, Mr. Law reasons, make it difficult for the Nats to sign their remaining top picks: 4th Round pick A.J. Cole, who's commitment to the University of Miami caused his stock to drop; Sammy Solis, a lefty out of San Diego University Mr. Law says is a "quick-to-the-majors pitcher"; and the Nats' 12th Round pick Robbie Ray, a left-hander out of Vanderbilt...(oh, and #signAdamDunn, not a draft pick, I know)...but if they sign all the picks, ESPN.com's Keith Law says the Nats would, "...have a legitimate claim to having one of the best draft classes overall."

See you all on August 16 at about 11:58 and change...In Rizzo We Trust.

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Increased expectations and a full season of Strasburg ought to increase ticket sales

Especially if they resign Dunn. Signing the whole draft might cost alot, but it will probably be cheaper in the long run that trying to fill the holes in the organization through free agency.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Aug 8, 2010 2:13 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Sign Cole!! What a gift if he falls to the 4th Round and Rizzo gets it done...

I’d be impressed…

#signDunn
#signCole
Don’t be a Crow, Harp!!

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Aug 8, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with this.

We’re going to learn an awful lot about the Lerner’s fiscal philosophy this offseason. They’ve pretty much stuck their necks out by saying they want to pay Dunn or get a lot of blowback from baseball industry people and the fans. If they sign Dunn, they need to commit to win quickly by getting even more aggressive via free agency or trade in the next two years or signing more elite talent via the draft and international markets. I think ownership and Rizzo are on a better path, though, and I look forward to seeing what the next trick is that they have up their sleeves.

On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.

by souldrummer on Aug 8, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Completely agree

If you sign Dunn, you are saying we are going to be competitive next year. They should have the money to drive up interest and attendance, so long as they pull the trigger in some moves. It goes back to my argument that the town wants to get involved, so long as tegu see a plan and a commitment to winning.

by The Herndon Kid on Aug 8, 2010 3:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

It will be interesting to see what they end up doing with the remaining money in the pot.

My preference is to sign Solis and Cole and take a fairly firm line with Harper. I realize everyone loves Harper and he’s probably an otherworldly prospect. I don’t think that he’s worth breaking the bank for in a way that limits the rest of our draft, though. He’s further away as a high schooler. Others, but not me, have makeup questions about him that the ejection in his last college game and the facebook stuff raise concerns about.

The focus for me remains 2012, though. Strasburg was a college ready quick to the majors prospect who has immediately started delivering a return on his signing bonus. Harper is a high school pick who will take more time to get to the bigs. If he wants to sign at a price within reason of the Nats negotiating price, that’s great. Sign him, and don’t let whatever we pay affect whether we draft Cole or Solis. If Rizzo has properly scouted the 2011 draft and has identified a college player he likes as much as Harper, then I have no problem letting stubborn Harper and Boras walk and accept the reduced dollars he gets as a likely no. 3 pick in the last year before the altered CBA agreement in 2011.

Solis sounds like he could help us sooner rather than later. Cole sounds like he has the upside to be that power pitcher with nasty stuff that is missing from our minors at present. Certainly I want Harper, but I’d like to see Cole and Solis signed a day or two before Harper even more.

On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.

by souldrummer on Aug 8, 2010 2:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Cole reminds me of Kerry Wood-- fastball, slurve pitcher with a growing feel for the changeup

We’re going to need to take good care of him though if we can sign him. And hopefully, Solis can be like his USD teammate Matusz. I don’t think there’s as much upside, but I definitely see him being a useful MLB pitcher.

As for Harper, who cares?

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you mean who cares if we sign him or who cares that he's being stupid on facebook?

On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.

by souldrummer on Aug 8, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

The "who cares" remarks were stemmed from my laziness and inability to spew actual analysis

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know how much I like Harper anyway

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I was gonna say

I care a lot about Harper. I do think he is going to sign, and I hope we don’t prioritize signing him so much that we aren’t able to sign at least either Solis or Cole…but obviously I care a pretty good deal about a guy who’s being called the best high school hitter of all-time.

I’m looking forward to how this month unfolds. I’m curious about how Marquis will pitch today, Zimmermann will pitch when he gets up, if we’re able to get something done with Dunn before he hits the open market, and what happens with our draft picks. This month will give us a really good idea of how close we are to seriously contending…and I think Harper is a huge part of that.

Also, the Nats website is reporting that the chances of Espinosa being a September call-up are “50-50”. It touches on the fact that either Desmond or Espinosa will have to be moved to second, but doesn’t really express who is more likely (I’m nearly certain it’ll be Desmond). Just something that I didn’t see on the main page this morning that I thought was worth discussing.

by Mevans12 on Aug 8, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is the Nats website, Ladson?

I like Ladson’s when he’s quoting unnamed Nats source. I don’t like him as much when he’s speculating. I sure hope that they aren’t planning on bringing up Espinosa yet. To me it says that they are lettting the big league situation affect his development. I think he’d have to rip through AAA to earn a big league callup and even then I’d probably keep him down.

Commenters on Natsfarm.com seems to believe that there are 40 man roster issues with bringing him up.
We’ve got to protect a lot of the pitching inventory or they could get picked up in the Rule 5 draft.

On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.

by souldrummer on Aug 8, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why Espinosa shouldn't be up

He needs to prove himself in AAA.
Service time (yeah its negligible but every day counts)

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's this afternoon's lineup (prepare yourself)

Nationals
1. Alberto Gonzalez, 2B
2. Ian Desmond, SS
3. Ryan Zimmerman, 3B
4. Adam Dunn, 1B
5. Josh Willingham, LF
6. Michael Morse, RF
7. Justin Maxwell, CF
8. Wil Nieves, C
9. Jason Marquis, SP

Eh, Gonzalez leading off and Maxwell’s in their as well against Ted Lilly. Lilly’s career numbers against Zimmerman and Dunn are pretty good as well, so Marquis better be on his game.

Discuss!

by Mevans12 on Aug 8, 2010 2:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Thankfully, we'll have Marquis to drive in runs!

It’s like LaRussa batting the pitcher 8th having Wil Nieves in the 8 spot. Gonzalez leading off is a real headscrather. I’ve got to believe that’s due to Maxwell’s epic fail. Really, though, if we’re playing all of those guys in a day game after a night game that doesn’t inspire fear. I’m forgetting Mench’s positions. Maybe he earned a start with his clinch pinch hit at bat last night?

On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.

by souldrummer on Aug 8, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

i hope we havent already seen marquis on his game this season

Somebody needs to be last in the standings; as long as its the Orioles, Tom is happy

by TJL on Aug 8, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh, Mench rakes against LILLY!!!

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Aug 8, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

@Mevans12

I did put up a minors Fanpost again today that summarizes last night’s results and provides room for a gamethread if you want to use it. Feel free to check it out and add your feedback. I’m going to be headed to one of the Nats bar candidates in a little bit to check out today’s game and probably won’t be checking out the threads until 8:00 at the earliest.

On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.

by souldrummer on Aug 8, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

OT: How many freaking times can the Rays be no-hit

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 3:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Really sad....Longoria broke up the no-hitter with 2 out in the 9th.

But Morrow hung on for the win.

Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes. Oscar Wilde

by MissB on Aug 8, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey...welcome back, Marquis...by the way, you have Nitwit Nieves behind the plate!

Oh yeah, don’t expect much bat work from Maxwell or Nieves. Desmond and Morse may not contribute either. Break a leg!

Best, Mr. Riggles

Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes. Oscar Wilde

by MissB on Aug 8, 2010 3:29 PM EDT reply actions  

here we go: le sigh...

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 3:46 PM EDT reply actions  

reply fail

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really wont be that dissapointed if we dont sign Harper.

If we can’t sign him, then we take 3B/SS power hitting/great defensive Anthony Rendon next year. He would make it to the Majors earlier and, unlike Harper, wouldn’t be looking for the quickest way off the Nats ball team.
Harper is clearly one of the best prospects ever, but having SS Rendon for near-life is better than C Harper for 5-6 years. I care more about signing Cole right now, he was a huge steal.

The Shanahan era is going to bring the Redskins back to Glory! Great QB and an actual O-line.

by Horcasitas4 on Aug 8, 2010 5:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh my goodness someone who agrees with me on drafting Rendon. A miracle I say!

And Rendon will not be a SS. No chance. Whatsoever. At all. We’d either move Rendon to 1B or LF, with 1B being more probable because of his body frame.

I’ve seen the kid play though and man is his swing developed and refined. I just hope he’s not a one-one.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

He wont be if Harper is on the draft board.
Rendon attended Lamar High School. As a senior he was a first team 5A all-state shortstop and an All-Greater Houston selection by the Houston Chronicle after he hit 570 with eight home runs, 17 doubles, 56 Runs batted in, 56 runs scored and 13 stolen bases.

Why do you say there is on chance of him not being a SS in the Majors? His height or something?

The Shanahan era is going to bring the Redskins back to Glory! Great QB and an actual O-line.

by Horcasitas4 on Aug 8, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

He doesn't have the arm and would probably be less than-mediocre defensively. He does an adequate job at 3rd for Rice but he's who he is because he can thump it.

Plus, an observation I’ve noticed: If you’re coming out of high school, the best athletes and players usually play shortstop or are pitchers, presumably because of the value proposition.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think his height is really prohibitive-- you'll hear anywhere from 5'9" to 6'

I mean the guy’s an athlete and I could totally see him being like Pedroia if things work out right. He’s very disciplined and projects as a complete hitter with 3/5/6-hole potential to me.

Harper’s a once-in-a-lifetime prospect though so I really do hope we sign him. I mean, he has a perfect swing (that hopefully isn’t ruining as he figures out big-league breaking stuff), has decent speed, and has a cannon of an arm.

Maybe Rendon will fall to us and we can truly bask in joy. I can definitely see him playing 2nd (he’s athletic enough and playing second could mask his average-at-best arm), and I guess he has enough range for that.

Very promising to say the least upon reflection. You have Desmond and Espinosa, Zimm (and Rendon potentially hopefully, I will lapdog for him), Dunn, Harper, Ramos. Hoo-rah-ray

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

What does a one-one mean?

On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.

by souldrummer on Aug 8, 2010 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

First pick first round

That’s pretty much its scope— I don’t think you’ll hear one-two or anything like that, haha.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gotcha.

That’s what I thought. Was Rendon the guy with the big injury this year? I remember one of the one-one candidates got hurt.

On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park. In Rizzo and Ramos we trust.

by souldrummer on Aug 8, 2010 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I think so. Rendon has a history with ankle knicks.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

The most publicized elite player with an injury was Anthony Ranaudo

Could’ve been the #1 pick, instead he was taken in the sandwich round.

The Shanahan era is going to bring the Redskins back to Glory! Great QB and an actual O-line.

by Horcasitas4 on Aug 9, 2010 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

LSU had a terrible season, by golly

Thanks for clarifying that, totally didn’t think of that.

Painful to see Maineri have such a bad season though, but man was LSU’s pitching horrendous at some moments of the season

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

And just curious, do you think Ranaudo could have been the one-one?

I personally couldn’t argue that he was the best college draft prospect over Pomeranz. I guess it was because of those elbow issues, I guess.

I just would have even argued Harvey as a better prospect, but it’s just because I’m an ACC guy.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

It was the elbow issues, that's why he's playing this summer...

To try to get back up to the dollar amount he thinks he’d have received had he not had to work through the injury…there’s video of Law scouting him in the video with the article linked…also A.J. Cole and Harper if you’re an INSIDER…

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Aug 9, 2010 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wish I was an Insider

But I couldn’t tempt myself to pay for that content when there’s better specialized sources and word-of-mouth from the horse’s mouth.

Although yes, I have been following Ranaudo at Cape Cod and man was he dominant (he left the league a few weeks ago I think). Sox are probably going to sign him, they really should.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

If he's healthy he's a steal where they got him late in the first round...

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Aug 9, 2010 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely

Plenty of upside— but hey, we can’t be too selfish because we stole AJ.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

I still think Harper's a punk with a major league dooche for an agent.

I hope the Nats sign him, though. I still doubt whether he is one of those “character”
guys that Rizzo likes to collect.

Patiently waiting for "next year" since 1971.

by Princess Jazzy on Aug 8, 2010 7:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Boras isn't as bad as he's portrayed.

I’ve met him and talked to him, and he has a nice and calm demeanor in areas outside of his profession. He’s just good at what he does, and that entails a bit of nastiness and hardball play— that’s how I see it.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's certainly good at his job.

What I find interesting is that he and Riggs were teammates. I think they’re friends, too. Weird.

Patiently waiting for "next year" since 1971.

by Princess Jazzy on Aug 8, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think so...

With the Arkansas Travellers I assume? I know both were in the Cardinals organization in the mid-70s.

Boras is a nice man it seems though, I saw him at the Irvine Regional and chatted with him for a bit. He is definitely a bright guy. The fact that he’s demonized is a good thing in my book, and I don’t think he’s a bad guy outside of his job.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

My two cents

I’m not worried about Solis and Cole not signing yet. Often over-slot signings either work in two ways: Some general agreement of dollars and cents are worked out pre-draft (e.g. Justin Nicolino, the Blue Jays’ second-rounder) or immediately after the draft (numerous cases).

Since Cole dropped far more than we thought he would, he’s probably commanding near-first round money. Solis is probably going to go over-slot too, although I’m not sure how much (he’s going to use Matusz’ success as a benchmark though). I’m pretty confident that Solis has worked something out in the beginning and the signing is just delayed to appease MLB, and hopefully Cole is in that mould too.

And as for Harper, who cares? (you know what I mean by this) (Give me Rendon too please)

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 8:06 PM EDT reply actions  

It Is Widely Speculated................

That Washington Nationals success (playoff contender) would guarantee much larger crowds at Nationals Park. I was not a math major; however, it seems that the Nats, whose average ticket prices is $35, would earn an additional 28mil a season in ticket sales alone, if they only averaged another 10K per game (35K instead of 25K) at home.

by sullyzz on Aug 8, 2010 11:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Big Difference Between James & Wade...............

and Harper & Machado…….MONEY. It would be a huge risk for Harper to not accept what will likely be the largest contract ever for a rookie, to go back to school and risk potential injury. Plus, if he doesn’t sign, he would risk being selected next year by Baltimore……and who would be the team with the second pick? The Nationals (for not being able to sign the #1 this season). I agree with Zuckerman…..He will sign, and the Nats actually have the greatest leverage in the negotiations.

by sullyzz on Aug 8, 2010 11:23 PM EDT reply actions  

The James comparison was made when Harper was 16 and was on the SI cover.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

One Think I Do Not Understand About Agents/Advisors...............

How do they get away with “advising” NCAA players while they are still with the university? NCAA Football and Basketball players are forbidden from such contact; how do the baseball players get away with this? Baseball should be as strictly regulated as football and basketball.

by sullyzz on Aug 8, 2010 11:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Advisors are allowed in any sport.

You just can’t directly or indirectly take any money from them. The reason the UNC (and other) guys are in hot water is because they took a subsidized trip to an agent’s party, which is a clear breach of violations.

I mean, we all know that “advisors” are essentially the agents with a euphemistic title, but still there’s clear decorum there.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I Disagree...........

There is no way Bama RB Mark Ingram could be “advised” in the same capacity as Harper, or Strasburg last season (or any number of baseball players in NCAA). The NCAA would view that as a benefit, and would likely result in the player becoming ineligible. Especially after the “Advisor” actually becomes involved in contract negotiations.

by sullyzz on Aug 9, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

NCAA rules state that advisors are allowed in any sport.

The rules specifically state that you are allowed to seek counsel of a lawyer, and most agents are also lawyers.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Plus Harper's college is a JC, and not under the jurisdiction of the NCAA.

Being nitpicky, but he’s not compromising his amateurism because baseball’s system demands different rules regarding agents (at either the JC or NCAA level).

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 8, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not arguing that he has compromised his amateurism.....

just saying that Baseball should have to play by the same rules as football and basketball.

Are you suggesting that Scott Boras would be allowed to “advise” Alabama Running Back and Heisman winner, Mark Ingram during his final two seasons (if he doesn’t enter the draft next year) at Alabama, in the same capacity that he has Strasburg and Harper? Ingram would be deemed ineligible, or Bama would face possible NCAA sanctions. Plus, it is impossible for Ingram to declare for the draft, but then go back to school simply because he cannot come to terms on a contract. I am pretty sure that the NCAA would view this form of “advising” as the same as receving a benefit. Plus, Boras will be actively attempting to work out a contract with the Nationals…………….that isn’t advising, that is acting in the capacity of an Agent, and for the player to be able to go back to school is simply a joke.

But then again…….the entire baseball draft is a joke, and there needs to be a major overhauling of the system. Now that I think of it, MLB in general has major problems that should be addressed, but won’t as long as ole’ Bud is in charge, but that is a discussion for another thread.

by sullyzz on Aug 9, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Again, Boras can advise Ingram if he wanted to.

He just can’t spend any money on Ingram.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not True......

BTW, just found a tid-bit of info on the SportsAgentsBlog…………apparently, players are suppose to pay for the services of their “advisors”. That would make “some” sense, since it IS considered a benefit. “Advising” is no different that “loaning” a player an Escalade.

by sullyzz on Aug 9, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

They don't pay for services immediately though, and they count as "personal lawyers".

Entirely different scope and connotation. Players (and their families) are entitled to things, you know?

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Again....I disagree

Boras could not “advise” Mark Ingram in the same capacity as a baseball player…..but you are entitled to your opinion.

by sullyzz on Aug 9, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's not a matter of disagreeing or agreeing. These are facts and you are being selective in what you're arguing.

Cough up the rulebook and prove to me that the system is contradictory. Otherwise, while I accept that the system isn’t optimal, I also whole-heartedly believe that baseball’s draft system is the best out there.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
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by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I need comprehensive analysis to satiate my thrust for understanding in this topic.

Because I do happen to be involved in college baseball and this topic interests me, as well as being close to heart.

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by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

You are also comparing apples to oranges.

Football’s system is vastly different than baseball’s. While I can’t give much more variant perception or insight on this, Boras “advising” Ingram is certainly possible.

“Advising” is clearly a loosely-defined term, but unless you’re at the negotiating table, I wouldn’t come to such a harsh conclusion and damnation of the system. Now that you’ve brought it up, that’s definitely something for me to ask some baseball people I know.

But I would again in conjecture state that baseball signings are a matter of scope. Most baseball signings are done directly with the scout that scouted them. So advisors can be purely advisors, since things often are worked out directly with the family with advisors as personal lawyers (which is permitted), my guess.

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by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I get your point about the flawed system, but contract negotiations protocols are different per each league's CBA.

In baseball (because of the complexity of the system), it utilizes a loophole where advisors serve as personal lawyers in negotiations (I believe), which doesn’t compromise amateurism at all.

Plus you have to recognize that most signings are made via player and the scout that drafted/signed them. It’s a huge matter of scope, since 50 potential signings are much different than 7 signings or 2 signings.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
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by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Like I Posted Above Though..............

Advising is still a service with a monetary value….and apparently require payment from the players.

Also from the same website, "just two days ago, the NCAA called a baseball advisor’s advisee and asked the player questions such as, "How many times has your advisor talked to pro teams on your behalf?" and "How much have you paid your advisor?"

Seems the NCAA does pay attention to Baseball….did not realize this until we began this discussion.

by sullyzz on Aug 9, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

How do you say that? I find that insulting.

Advising is a deferred service and is classified under legal services, which make it permissible.

And you also have to understand that baseball is a different system. If you go to college you are required to stay there for at least three years. Nothing like football or basketball.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
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by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Insulting?

You’ve got to be kidding me! Because I quoted from an article from SportsAgentsBlog?

by sullyzz on Aug 9, 2010 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

No because you're damning college baseball and aren't providing a very convincing argument.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry You Feel That Way

I dont’ find your arguments any more convincing. “Advising” to me seems to be simply an Agent’s loophole to have their way with vulnerable student athletes. And I truly find it very unfair for NCAA baseball players to receive a “benefit” that other students and student athletes would have to pay top dollar to receive. If a student athlete wants to declare for a pro-sport, then they should be able to declare at whatever point that they want to declare, and hire an attorney to fully represent them, at the risk of losing their eligibility…..but to receive a “free” service from the same agents who will eventually earn millions off of them? Apparently, the baseball players are, in fact, “paying” for these services. And you are correct….if Mark Ingram PAID an attorney to “advise” him, that is an entire different scenario.

by sullyzz on Aug 9, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Understand the system comprehensively before you go on to critique it heavily.

I don’t claim to understand the system because I don’t, but you don’t have more of a grasp of it than I do.

And “paying” is a relative term, so I don’t find that convincing. Schools “pay” their players to play on their respective sports teams.

Lay out a complete argument because I’m not hearing anything new. Are agents exploiting a loophole? Yes, sure. But is that illegal or against the rules? No, because they are going by the rulebook and players are receiving what they are entitled to.

Baseball negotiations are a different ballgame compared to those in other sports, as I previously explained, so maybe that could be a partial explanation for why the system works the way it does.

Otherwise, that’s something I’d have to ask too. But to go by an obviously-skewed blog as concrete fact, when I’m sure you’ll admit that you don’t completely understand the system too? Well my golly me.

I watch a lot of college baseball and really admire the system and the culture that surrounds it, so I think I can at least understand both sides and think of ideas of how things work. Have I been involved in negotiations? No, but that’s something I’ll ask now that you pose the question and topic. But I at least have ideas, rather that continue to pile with the simplistic argument that the players are accepting benefits somehow.

I get that, know exactly what you mean, and probably agree to some extent. But I’m playing devil’s advocate for a reason.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

You are quit the arrogant one....aren't you

I have already completed a Graduate level degree, not still working on whatever level you are currently at in your studies……and I am more than a quarter of a century older than you; therefore, do not insult me on my ability to comprehend and critique. I have been much too nice in this discussion, and I refuse to continue a discussion with an arrogant poster who does not respect the opinions of others. BTW….a blogspot is not the place to write a thesis, and that is what it would take to completely defend one’s views of this delicate subject, which is simply an opinionated view anyway.

by sullyzz on Aug 9, 2010 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not being arrogant, or trying to

It’s just that you’re regurgitating the same thing over and over. I don’t claim to know any more that you, but if you want to present fact then go to the NCAA bylaws and analyze their statements.

I would find that convincing— saying that the players are accepting benefits with fringe support isn’t.

I never questioned your intellect, just your ability to convince me in this argument. I’m sorry that you took that personal.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Whew....

I was completely blown away by the large amount of documentation that you, yourself, were able to provide….and not just your personal opinion! In fact, that is all you and I have done, is express OUR OPINION! Anyway, good night. I have to get to bed, because I have to get my kid to one of the local colleges early tomorrow morning for BASEBALL CAMP! Imagine that….in a few years, Boras may be knocking on my door! lol

by sullyzz on Aug 9, 2010 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Golly me

You’re providing your opinion. I’m trying to find facts that either supplement or disprove your opinions, by showing why the system is wrong or why the system works as is.

Good night, but this is really amusing since you indicated that you did not comprehend my posts as intended. That’s either a testament to me or to you. Probably me, but I’d like to say its not.

And goodness I post far too much.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

And maybe I provide documentation because I know what I'm talking about in this situation.

For the billionth time, do I know what’s going on in the negotiations? No, but I think I can extrapolate on my knowledge and portray an idea of why the system works like it does with what I do know.

I’ve attended a lot of college games and learned a lot about the college baseball system and followed a lot of minor league content and met a lot of baseball people. It’s refreshing and a huge reason why I like the college game, besides the fact that I also go to a good baseball university.

I actually know something for a change! I re-read through this thread, and a lot of my rebuttals are rehashing the same facts or speculation (what I’m not sure is fact or actually want to learn).

Are you wrong about the system being flawed? No. But are you being far too simplistic in saying “baseball’s [system] should be as regulated as football’s or basketball’s”? Yes.

Apples and oranges, apples and oranges. I’ll give you a thesis of what I think if you’d like it.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Like I've mentioned, I don't disagree about your opinion on agents/advisors.

But what are you bringing to the table that’s new? Do you know how negotiations work? I don’t. Do you?

I thank you for bringing it up because that might be something interesting to ask some players I know who’ve been through the process, or athletic administrations or baseball people I’ve spoken to in the past.

But that aside, you’re essentially providing an opinion with bull-horns— Ingram, la di dah; I still think players are accepting benefits, etc. I accept that argument, but I’m trying to explain why there are differences and such and you seemingly ignore them.

I’m simply playing devil’s advocate here because I frankly think I have an idea about college baseball— not a lot but enough to give an educated opinion— and want to share the knowledge through the discussion.

If you substitute my frankness in commenting on your arguments (which I now know are simply regurgitated opinions) for arrogant or me thinking I’m holier-than-thou, then I’m sorry and I’ll say that’s not true. I’ve already been through that and don’t want to be involved in that type of thing again, or be that type of arrogant person.

It’s just an argument, and I think yours is weak.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

How do you say that the MLB system is flawed? I think it's the most beautiful and effective system out there.

When you turn 18, you have the opportunity to do what the free market tells you. If you want to forego college and turn professional, then you have the opportunity to do such if you’re drafted.

If you go to school, then you’re required to stay in school for at least three years or until you turn 21— whichever comes first— before you’re eligible again.

Plus baseball’s system requires deep scouting— which I find to be an art. If you’ve watched college baseball and understand the system, then go ahead and critique. If not, I don’t find your explanations comprehensive or fair.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

You Are Correct!

I love it that high school kids can enter the draft! Way to go! NFL and NBA should also allow kids to enter the draft! Maurice Clarett should have been able to go to the NFL! But that is my opinion.

But a team should not be held captive for the slot (first pick) and NOT be able to trade it, etc. Should be very similar as the NFL and NBA draft.

Other problems in MLB are centered around the unlevel leagues and divisions, different rules in each league, the joke of an all-star game deciding home field advantage for the biggest series in the sport, and others.

by sullyzz on Aug 9, 2010 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Baseball doesn't trade picks because its wants to promote parity. And the barriers to entry in top-level baseball are MUCH higher than they are in football and basketball.

Again, apples and oranges.

And since you mentioned Clarett. He’s free to do whatever he wants. But there are reasons why football players stay in school for a few years— because college football is the de facto development system for pro football, and because of physical readiness. And also because the NFL’s CBA gives an age floor. I have no problem with Clarett trying to get in.

He obviously failed.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
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by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh golly...

Baseball’s unlevel divisions may seem weird, but isn’t that rooted in some sort of history. Just maybe…? And those “other problems” don’t pertain to this argument/conversation about the advisor conundrum in the NCAA, so I will defer and ignore in comment there. That’s not relevant to the first argument I bring up.

And I ABSOLUTELY disagree about your portrayal of the draft system. Team’s aren’t captive as much as football team’s are held captive either. You think the 49ers weren’t tied to Alex Smith from the start? The Houston Texans were mavericks and bold in choosing Mario Williams, but how many teams do that? One-ones usually don’t have the leverage to trade down.

If baseball allowed the trading of draft picks, who’s to say that teams would sell picks like some teams do in the NBA? The draft’s purpose of ameliorating current gulfs in talent by creating future parity would be diminished heavily, and that would suck.

It could result in Matsuzaka-like bidding wars, heck. You want us to accept $51M, but essentially give up the rights to Strassy to the Red Sox or Yankees? What if the Rays did that year after year instead of drafting talent that has them in the current position they’re in?

It would just be exaggerated revenue sharing.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

My stupidity in retrospect
Plus, it is impossible for Ingram to declare for the draft,

Haha, well there was the answer right there— silly me for not seeing it. Baseball players don’t declare for the draft. The draft finds them, you could say.

The whole advisor thing is kind of moot because advisors could simply serve as lawyers and advisors for an amateur until they turn professional.

If Ingram has to declare his intent to become a professional and can’t reverse the decision, then of course he’ll “hire” an agent immediately.

I’d speculate that if a baseball player was going to go pro, he’d hire his agent and then sign the contract. So while the advisor tag is obviously a facade and euphemistic tag, it’s still legitimate and legal under the bylaws.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
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by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Patrick, being nitpicky here but one thing I noticed

Solis is from the University of San Diego (USD), not San Diego University. Haha I’m from there so it caught my eye when I re-read it. Sorry for being picky

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by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 12:59 AM EDT reply actions  

Thanks I'll read them and get back to you.

No hard feelings by the way, this is the Internet you know?

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
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by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually bingo, I know the exact reason of why things work as they do.

Refer to 12.2.4.

After initial full-time collegiate enrollment, an individual loses amateur status in a par- ticular sport when the individual asks to be placed on the draft list or supplemental draft list of a professional league in that sport, even though: (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02)
(a) The individual asks that his or her name be withdrawn from the draft list prior to the actual draft; (b) The individual’s name remains on the list but he or she is not drafted; or © The individual is drafted but does not sign an agreement with any professional athletics team.

You aren’t on a draft list in baseball. You have to declare to be put on a draft list in football or basketball. The advisor-speak is moot, because athletes are similarly entitled to advisors as long as they are collegiate amateurs, and are allowed to speak with professional organizations as individual parties.

The Ingram comparison is apples and oranges because he actually has to declare for the draft, which compromises his amateurism immediately. Baseball players don’t actually declare and compromise their amateurism through recognition, so that’s why the system is as it is.

Gosh I always knew that and I feel so dumb for not thinking of that immediately. Your inter-sport comparisons are wrong, but I argued them with the secondary reasons and not the primary answer.

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by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

* through declaration , not through recognition

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by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

READ THIS PLEASE: This is exactly the reason why college juniors are eligible to remain in college, and why high school graduates are eligible to play in college.

And this is where my bullcrap and endless (yes, I’ll admit that my arguments were silly and directionless as well, even though I did actually try and substantiate my thoughts with facts) speculation about the contract negotiation process come into play. Now if a player has an agent performing the negotiation services, then he’s obviously ineligible.

But the NCAA says that players are entitled to lawyers, so players can probably subvert the agent loophole by utilizing their lawyer as a negotiator/arbiter as well.

Going off my revised (and correct) explanations, football and basketball players are deemed ineligible when they declare for their respective drafts because they actually declared their intent to become a professional. This doesn’t happen in baseball. And because these prospective football and basketball professionals declare their professional intent and consequently lose their amateur status, they might as well hire formally hire an agent.

So essentially it’s a tricky game that these athletes play, but none are against NCAA rules.

Ingram’s entitled to have an advisor all he wants— heck, the NBA/NFL even advises these kids through their “exploratory/draft review committees”— but your comparison was completely misguided. His “advising” is totally different because he declared his intent to turn professional. Baseball players don’t, so while they may have de facto “agents”, they aren’t formally represented by an agent until they turn professional (which is the moment they sign their contract).

Heck, I’m educated after all.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
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by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

My Last Post.................................

You are entitled to your opinion,and I refuse to answer anymore posts on this subject. I highly recommend, however, that if you are a student athlete (which I believe you stated you were) that you tread the water carefully with this subject. If you look at current events, this subject is currently very volitile, with Agents/Advisors, the NCAA, student athletes, coaches, and administrators. My entire argument has centralized around the fact that the playing field is not level between the different sports, and that it should be, one way or the other. The rules are clear….an agent/advisor is not allowed to negotiate FOR a player, and that player remain eligible for NCAA athletics….and that also applies to baseball players. It does not matter if they “declared” for the sport or not…..if the advisor negotiates for them, they lose their eligibility. The problem, is that baseball has not been as closely scrutinized as other sports, and that is where I think the injustice resides. I think the below link answers a lot of your questions regarding baseball players specifically, and is in direct compliance with the NCAA Bylaws that I posted last night:

http://www.rolltide.com/datadump/fls_files/files/files/15655.pdf

by sullyzz on Aug 9, 2010 6:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was never trying to give an opinion, I was trying to explain how the system could work as it does

If you didn’t realize that, that’s not my fault. Bylaws permits individuals to negotiate with professional teams, and I bet you that’s how in works in baseball (legally-speaking), especially since most players sigh through their scouts who signed them.

Give your opinion all you want, but I honestly just explained half of what that PDF says in my explanations. That’s pathetic, and not on me.

And them “declaring” or not is a big deal, don’t trivialize it. What a joke.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because you probably failed to read half of what I wrote...

Who’s to say advisors (and not agents) don’t negotiate for basketball players or football players or hockey players?

You listed a comparison between Michael Ingram and a baseball player and you said that if one “declared” and “was advised”, that one wouldn’t have the fallback to go back to school. That’s true, but only because he declared. If you didn’t have to declare for the NFL draft, you bet that players would have more leverage and go back to school if they could sign contracts, and you betcha that players would probably utilize the services of “advisors” and “lawyers” if they could to maintain eligibility.

It’s all a matter of decorum in the negotiation process, and from what I understand the rules permit things to work how they do.

That’s not opinion, that’s me trying to synthesize facts, present facts, and think about how facts would explain this situation. Do I think the system can change? Sure, but be so bullish, and then dare to link to a PDF that supports a lot (almost all) of what I already said, that’s dumb and on you.

That PDF said that you’re allowed to speak directly with a sports team. Bingo, that’s what I explained too, and maybe that’s why baseball players are allowed to keep their eligibility, because they negotiate per that protocol and decorum.

Under NCAA regulations, you and your parents are permitted to receive advice from a lawyer or other individual concerning a proposed professional sports contract, provided the advisor does not represent you directly in negotiations for the contract. In this regard, it is permissible for an advisor to discuss with you the merits of a proposed contract and give you suggestions about the type of offer you should consider. In order to maintain your eligibility at an NCAA school, however, you may not use this advisor as a link between you and the professional sports team. Rather, you must view the advisor as an extension of your own interests and not as a source to contact a professional team.

Goodness isn’t that what I’ve been saying this entire time.

The more and more I read this, the more I just think you’re trying to run away from a losing argument.

um, please visit my soccer (football) blog. it's interesting, I promise. por favor? (filbertway.com)
Sunshine will come to Nats Park, I promise. (visit por favor? my website)

by ajk9hy on Aug 9, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

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