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Washington Nationals' Catcher Chatter: Wilson Ramos, Jesus Flores, Derek Norris And Time vs Pudge Rodriguez.

It was hard to not notice the presence of several Nats' prospectsMLB.com's Jonathan Mayo included in his recent survey of the top position players throughout baseball in a series of articles entitled, "Prospect Watch." Most notable was the inclusion of two Nats' backstops on the list entitled, "Prospect Watch: Baseball's Top 10 catchers." Mr. Mayo himself (or someone at MLB in charge of subtitling articles) subtitled the piece, "- Yanks, Nats, Jays dominate list of up-and-coming backstops", after all. Wilson Ramos, acquired along with reliever Joe Testa in a trade with Minnesota last winter that sent closer Matt Capps to the Twins, was a highly-regarded catching prospect ranked the 78th and 51st prospect overall in baseball in '09-'10, respectively, by Baseball America before he hit .316/.341/.494 with 3 doubles and 3 HR's in 20 games in the Nats' system and hit in 14 of 48 at bats (.292) with 4 2B's and his first major league HR after his call-up to the nation's capital in September. With just 22 games and 79 at bats under his belt now, the 23-year-old catcher seems poised to break through at the major league level, which may or may not bode well for Pudge Rodriguez's charge toward 3,000 hits since he'll have to make the most of the starts he splits with Ramos (or Jesus Flores?) (and probably sign a two-to-three-year extension) if he's going to reach that milestone in a curly-W cap.

Star-divide

Ramos followed up on his strong showing with Washington last September by hitting .322/.390/.567 with 17 doubles, 9 HR's and 36 RBI's in 47 games and 180 at bats with the Tigres de Aragua in the Liga Venezuela Beisbol Profesional this winter. MLB.com's Mr. Mayo, who has the Nats' backstop ranked as the 7th best catching prospect in baseball, writes that in spite of his prowess at the plate, Ramos', "real calling card is his glove work. Ramos has a very good receiver who will only get better as he gets used to catching a big league staff." The MLB.com writer predicts that though Ramos will start the 2011 campaign,"...[splitting] time with (and [learning] from) Ivan Rodriguez...the everyday job will be his before long."

Nats' Skipper Jim Riggleman said as much in an interview with MASNSports.com's Byron Kerr recently in an article entitled, "How much will Ivan Rodriguez play in 2011":

"'I think ideally we will try to get Pudge 300 at-bats and get the back up guy 300 at-bats,' Riggleman said. 'It may be a situation where Pudge catches two out of three games earlier on in the season. Then as we get in the middle of the year, maybe Ramos or Flores - whoever is the backup - that person starts catching about half the time and we go from there.'"

Jesus Flores, who put together a .322/.365/.460 VWL slash line with 6 doubles, 2 HR's and 16 RBI's in 25 games and 87 at bats, was equally impressive in first sustained action in over two years, but most preseason prognosticators see the 26-year-old former NY Mets' prospect who hasn't played a major league game since September 12th 2009 having to prove himself for a time in Triple-A before he's back with Washington full-time. Could a strong Spring Training chance things? What will it take to convice the Nationals that Flores is 100%, and that his surgically-repaired right shoulder is prepared for the rigors of every day play? 

Behind Pudge, Ramos and Flores, however, in one position in the organization that certainly has depth, is 21-going-on-22-year-old '07 4th Round pick Derek Norris, who's the 10th best backstop prospect in baseball according to MLB.com's Jonathan Mayo's rankings. Ranked the 38th overall prospect (ahead of Wilson Ramos?) by Baseball America before the 2010 season after he'd hit .286 with 30 doubles, 23 HR's, a .413 OBP and .513 SLG (.926 OPS) at Class-A Hagerstown in 2009, Norris struggled to regain his power as he recovered from surgery on the hamate bone in his left-hand which cost him a stint in the AFL catching Stephen Strasburg and Drew Storen in '09. Norris, did however, continue to show patience at the plate with a .419 OBP on the year at Class-A+ Potomac, and in Mr. Mayo's estimation, his .278/.403/.667 Arizona Fall League line this year, "should help him move up to Double-A," when the 2011 season starts.

"While he's more of an offensive-minded catcher," MLB.com's Mr. Mayo writes, "he's improved his defense considerably and has thrown out better than 40 percent of basestealers over the past two seasons. With a strong '11, he could make things interesting with Ramos in Washington in '12." Maybe the depth behind the plate is the reason behind the Nationals reportedly considered including Ramos in a deal for a top-of-the-line pitcher they were after this winter. Maybe it's behind MLB.com's Bill Ladson writing in a recent edition of his, "Inbox: How's Opening Day lineup shaping up?", that he, "would not be surprised if Rodriguez was traded before Opening Day in order to make room for Ramos and Jesus Flores." 

D.C. GM Mike Rizzo said in an interview this winter that after going to the VWL, Jesus Flores would be at Spring Training to, "...try to win a job as a catcher on the Nationals in 2011," but hinted that the competition was between Flores and Ramos to see who'd work with Pudge, but however it shakes out when pitchers and catchers report in mid-February, the Nationals' backstop situation should be much-improved from the Josh Bard/Wil Nieves platoon days of 2009 and the Pudge/Nieves combination last season, and with Norris on the way up, as Mr. Rizzo himself said back in November, "I think we've got a good quality stable of young, good, impact-type catchers." Imagine if the Nats had kept Bryce Harper behind the plate? In Rizzo We Trust...?

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Ramos impressed in Sept

Talk about depth at catcher. I have not seen Flores or Norris play, but I liked Ramos a ton, first time I set eyes. Talent, strength, confidence, and “make it” is written all over him.

"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth."

- Mickey Mantle

by Whupass on Jan 22, 2011 3:19 PM EST reply actions  

Duhduh, duhduh

WILSON!

I think it’s possible to have too much depth, but one’s thing’s for sure: Pudge is not doing the Nats any favors right now. If a catcher gets moved, I hope it’s him.

Rob

"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard

by RobBobS on Jan 22, 2011 4:52 PM EST reply actions  

It’s not too much depth. Pudge needs to be a backup and Ramos can make it easy for the manager if he hits real well. Flores needs AAA at bats and is more expensive. Norris needs a year of seasoning. Too much depth doesn’t happen until 2012 at the earliest assuming they keep giving Flores arbitration to keep him in the system.

John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.

by souldrummer on Jan 22, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

That's one big ? though...

If Ramos or Flores outplays Pudge this Sping, will the future HoFer accept a backup role?

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Jan 22, 2011 5:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Trade Market

The team is already saying he will be splitting time and expect him to play less as the season go on. There are few FA Catcher available. Catcher/ 1st B Mike Napoli was just part of a trade. There is one less team needing a catcher and one less catcher to be traded. So there is the trade option. I sure the Nats are still looking to trade that make sense.

by HG_VA on Jan 22, 2011 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m sure that they would love to trade Pudge, but they’d have to kick in some cash with that deal. The market for 3M replacement level catchers isn’t but so great. It would be wonderful if Ramos plays well and they feel confident enough to deal him for a C+ level prospect. Rizzo hasn’t seen enough of Flores to just hand the job to Ramos with no proven backup.

John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.

by souldrummer on Jan 22, 2011 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah, man they will not trade Pudge

He’s under a one-year contract, and he is the consummate “wily vet.” As Rizz is keenly aware, these talented rooks will learn more from rubbing elbows and jawing with Pudge around the clubhouse and dugout than they could learn in four years at Harvard.

Last season, we saw Pudge pick a guy off first, then hold the ball and personally run that sucker down to make the put-out…unassisted? Is that how y’scored it? You will not see that every day.

"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth."

- Mickey Mantle

by Whupass on Jan 22, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

They'll trde him if they can

If Flores stays healthy for a few months in AAA, all Pudge does is cost alot of money to make the team worse.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Jan 23, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree with that.

John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.

by souldrummer on Jan 23, 2011 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess. But I think that these other backups are at positions where we don’t have that much depth.

John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.

by souldrummer on Jan 23, 2011 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't rush it flores!

no more fxs but I hope that if there’s any lengthy dl time for either of the above mentioned that we see you back soon

OTLs are worthless in the playoffs

by TJL on Jan 22, 2011 6:26 PM EST reply actions  

Flores......

The day Flores is ready to play in the majors, Pudge has got to go. Pudge was brought here to teach these kids……….What kids?

by artistfork on Jan 22, 2011 6:47 PM EST reply actions  

He was brought there to teach Stras, and JZimm

other tan thoes guys, we dont any kids ready at pitcher

by jeff550 on Jan 22, 2011 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

from my experience, the romantic notion about a veteran being brought in to mentor younger players...

is, almost in entirety, hogwash.

98% of veteran players want only one thing: one more contract. why else would a 40-year old catcher sign a two-year contract with the worst team in baseball? what possible gain does he have being a “mentor” to anyone?

this myth of the veteran mentor was born of movies and wives tales. for the most part, players go about their personal business, just like in any other office in any city in the country. some people are better at their jobs, some are worse. the ones that are better are emulated, but true leadership (for good or bad) in a work setting comes from the people in charge — not the employees.

most baseball players are just employees.

Leader (n): One who is in charge or in command of others.

simply liking and respecting a co-worker doesn’t make them a leader. there’s so much more to it than that. a leader motivates and teaches and inspires, but a leader also has the responsibility of discipline and command.

again, this is just from my experiences and thigns I have witnessed.

Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com

by Dave at District Sports Page on Jan 23, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

By all accounts, it works sometimes - and sometimes the Vet is a jerk

To use a couple of football examples, Roddy White credits his development as a WR to mentoring from Joe Horn; on the other hand, Brett Favre largely ignored Aaron Rodgers (who’s done all right despite that).

I can see Livo in the mentor role; not sure about Pudge. I do see him as a mentor for the pitchers; they aren’t competing with him for playing time, and it’s in his interests to get the most out of them because that’s going to increase his PT. Mentoring Ramos and Flores would require a bit more altruism.

by d_c_guy on Jan 23, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I like knowing

That the two older vets Pudge and Livo are from Cuba and PR. I think it was Ozzie Guillen that made a stink last year or the year before about how trying to be a latin born player is so tough to try and do over here in the states due to the culture shock and how little spanish is spoken, and there’s divisions and confusions in the locker room as a result, etc. I’d like to think (even if it’s naive to an extent) guys like Maya and Ramos who haven’t been over to the US very long really benefit from having those two around

by G8RB8 on Jan 23, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Hogwash?

Thanks for the dictionary definition of “leader,” Dave. Also your insight as to what goes on around the office. But I wonder, in concluding that ballplayers are simply employees who have co-workers like any other, do you speak from your personal experience as a ballplayer?

A pro baseball team ain’t church-league softball. For six months out of their yearly lives, ballplayers are forced into close-quarter association with each other. They play a tough sport – a man’s game – on a very high level of competition. It’s a team sport, and the good teams become very tight. They want to win, and they know that in order to do that, they need each other: the best hitters must hit, the best pitchers must be on their game, and the rooks gotta’ learn from the top hands. That is not a wive’s tale, nor is it hogwash.

Sure, it’s their livelihood. No kidding. Back in the day, catchers called pitchers “meat,” and a pitcher’s arm was called the “soup-bone.” If that pitcher wasn’t good, you didn’t eat. Now they’re all millionaires, so nobody’s gonna actually starve – but I doubt the basic sentiment has changed.

"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth."

- Mickey Mantle

by Whupass on Jan 23, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I've been in too many pro locker rooms in the last four years to agree

Pro sports is often romanticized, but to a very large extent, despite all the lip service contrary, it’s as much a business to the players as it is to the owners.

Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com

by Dave at District Sports Page on Jan 23, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Pudge

Was bought in to help the pitchers not the catchers………….However I do beleive LIVO helps these young pitchers.

by artistfork on Jan 23, 2011 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Dave, I think you paint with a broad-brush. A narrow minded veteran in any field would not want to help/mentor a rookie. I’m not sure if that’s the case with Pudge, but I tend to think not.

by PerryMason on Jan 23, 2011 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

But there is the real concern with Pudge that it’s not about winning for him at this point as much as it is about getting 3000 hits. If he wanted to win, I’m sure there were backup jobs with other teams available if he had wanted to sign somewhere else. I don’t think it’s about money with him either at this point because he made so much in his career and you hope that he’s invested wisely. But 3000 hits is a big deal to him, and I don’t really want him on this team but so much longer if his quest for 3000 hits gets in the way of winning. I’m already concerned that it may impact his approach at the plate and make him even less likely to take that rare walk.

John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.

by souldrummer on Jan 23, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Mase, your nick is well-chosen

You’re a tolerant sort.

"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth."

- Mickey Mantle

by Whupass on Jan 23, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I think this may especially be true in baseball with the disciplined union that has really preached inforation on the baseball side of it.

Do you think is true for hockey? Sometimes I see the recklnessness with which hockey players treat their bodies and I wonder if they are truly aware of the potential business implications of playing through all of the “lower body injuries”.

John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.

by souldrummer on Jan 23, 2011 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

So you've hung around locker-rooms for 4 (four) years?

Ahem. I want to be polite, so lemme’ just say that I yield to your superior knowledge and experience of the great game of baseball.

"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth."

- Mickey Mantle

by Whupass on Jan 23, 2011 11:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I was just saying...

that I don’t base my statement solely on personal opinion, but also observation and conversations with players and others in the game.

you are entitled to your opinion and to disregard mine, but you need not be snarky about it.

Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com

by Dave at District Sports Page on Jan 24, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, among other things, he's a blogger who covers a pro team

“Nats News Network” and all that. One of the things that the Nats management has done right, IMHO, has been to include certain bloggers in the media access pool. Reading his comment my assumption was that Dave was one of them. So I’m glad you took the high road in your response :-)

I certainly have my points of disagreement with Dave, and I do think that here he ignores some evidence that contradicts his theory (which is based on his personal experience – i.e., anecdotal evidence). But I don’t have a “pie-in-the-sky” attitude that everything in the locker rooms is selfless and altruistic either.

by d_c_guy on Jan 24, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry

I assumed everyone that comments here knew that I have credentials to cover the team for my site (Nats News Network) and that I am also credentialed to cover the Capitals for my Caps site (Caps News Network).

If that wasn’t public knowledge, I apologize.

Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com

by Dave at District Sports Page on Jan 24, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

You need to up the advertising budget. Let’s get the word oot.

by RoscoeNats on Jan 24, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I kind of agree with this. I think it’s more important to establish a climate of professionalism than to have but so many rah-rah leaders. I think that one aspect that might be different with the catching position is calling games. I think pitchers may be more confident (whether that’s justified or not) with a stronger defensive catcher their first time through the league. But after that, like we saw with Strasburg, they should be able to have the responsibility to call their own games.

And if Flores shows he’s healthy, you hope they’ll move somebody while they’re at peak value.

John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.

by souldrummer on Jan 23, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Allow me to retract an earlier disagreement

I didn’t realize Pudge was under a two-year contract. In that case, the Nats almost surely will deal him away after this season. For next to nothing, if need be, just to get out from under the obligation.

"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth."

- Mickey Mantle

by Whupass on Jan 24, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

My thoughts

I would have figured that it’s not always as much about ‘hands on’ teaching roles that we might understand as mentoring in a business/workplace sense. What I mean is that Im fairly certain that Pudge was also hired because of his professionalism and the way he approaches the game. In many respects I think this is small ‘m’ mentoring that the Nats had in mind – younger players would look across and see how this vet approaches every game, every training session and learn from it. Likewise, I think without as much ‘coaching’, young pitchers would have an element of trust in the game that Pudge calls, his mound visits and his approach to attacking certain hitters. I dont, nor did I envisage that Pudge would be ‘mentoring’ in the sense that he would be coaching guys.

I think vets in general would offer advice if a player asked them. But in a business sense – I dont get many people who offer advice to me on a everyday basis either.

Ian Desmond is my hero!

by Mezza on Jan 24, 2011 1:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Though it may be true in your own case, I disagree with the inference of that last sentence. I think it’s a myth – or something that is “romanticized”, in an odd way – that business is always cut throat. Smart business people care about the bottom line, be it their own or the companies, whether it be dollars or hits, but they also know that at some point they will be training their replacement and that they need to be thinking of their best exit strategy. It might be harder for a pro athlete, because of the nature of their business and the fact that, age wise, they are in the prime of their life (in every way other then their current profession). But as far a “business” goes I think one could find numerous cases where professionals mentor (and as you say mentoring can take many forms) from within an organization and even with competitors. To do so is (part of) the very definition of professionalism. I guess that’s where they saying “he’s a pro’s pro” comes from.

by PerryMason on Jan 24, 2011 8:01 AM EST up reply actions  

the last line was glib – I dont work in private sector business and for the most part i dont consider it homogenous enough to characterise it as being cut throat. Certainly mentoring happenins more in a business environment than in public sector environment from what ive seen. That said, there is often good commercial reasons for it. I think mentoring in sports is often hit by the fact that veteran players are often placed in a situation where they might be mentoring their replacement…

Ian Desmond is my hero!

by Mezza on Jan 24, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Mentoring their replacement is precisely what mentors are for

It’s true in baseball and elsewhere. The old pro knows it, and he generally doesn’t mind. Generally.

As a notable exception, Joe DiMaggio comes to mind. According to Mickey, the first time Joe ever spoke to him was when Mantle was sprawled on his back in the outfield, a bone sticking out of the side of his leg. DiMaggio leaned over him and said, “Don’t move. They’re bringing a stretcher.” Mickey would later say that’s as close as he and Joe ever came to a conversation.

"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth."

- Mickey Mantle

by Whupass on Jan 24, 2011 5:35 PM EST reply actions  

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