The Fall Of The House Of Philly
From CNNSI.com:
09:47 AM ET 10.08 | This was a Phillies team built to win now. Except they didn't. And what lies ahead is a future that's uncertain at best. Ryan Howard had to be helped off the field after possibly suffering a torn left Achilles tendon while grounding out to second for the final out of the game. He collapsed in pain and was still writhing in pain as the CardinalsRyan Madson, Raul Ibanez and Lidge all may have played their last games in a Phillies uniform. Placido Polanco will have surgery to repair a sports hernia and will also be 36 when spring training convenes at the Carpenter Complex next February. Oswalt and the Phillies have a mutual option that would cost the team $16 million to pick up. Chase Utley, Carlos Ruiz, Shane Victorino will all be a year older. Hamels is a year away from free agency. ran on the field to celebrate. Jimmy Rollins,
Wow. I don't think I could have put it more succinctly or more damaging than that.
We could be on the brink of a seismic shift in the National League after this year, and none of that is more apparent than in the fall of the Philadelphia Phillies - who have made two world series and three NLCS since 2008, all the while owning the division. The time could not be more ripe for the Washington Nationals to finally make their breakthrough. Lets look at the division:
- New York Mets: Ownership hell right now, the Mets are paying the price for big trades and big spending that have led to basically David Wright and a depleted roster of barely-major leaguers, and a pitching staff of little regard. The Wilpons hold on the team is tenuous. The only positive they have is Sandy Alderson, who I find to be an excellent baseball executive. Oh, and they are about to lose Jose Reyes.
- Miami Marlins: They are going through a wholesale re-branding of their identity with a new name, logo, and manager in Ozzie Guillen. There is good talent here, but its young and raw.
- Atlanta Braves: One has to wonder who their epic collapse will affect them. Will Chipper Jones be back? Dan Uggla was a bigger bust for them than Jayson Werth was for us. They seem to be losing faith in Jason Heyward. But there is a lot here still - I just wonder what that collapse will do to them.
- Philadelphia Phillies: Like the above quote, we could be seeing Jimmy Rollins, Ryan Madsen, Raul Ibanez, and Brad Lidge all play their last game in Philly. Cole Hamels has one year left to free agency, Roy Oswalt maybe gone because of how much he will cost. And who knows about manager Charlie Manuel. If their was a "Dream Team" in this city, it was the Phillies and they got beat.
Now, on to our Washington Nationals. No team in this division right now is better position to bounce on this Phillies fall. Washington has built a core of good players built form within: Zimmerman, Desmond, Espinoza, Strasburg, Detwiler, Zimmermann, Storen. Combined that with smart trades for guys like Morse, Clippard, and Ramos, and you have a tremendous core. The Nats also have an incredibly deep farm system led by, of course, Bryce Harper but also includes Chris Morero, Derek Norris, and Sammy Solis among many others. I would try and keep vets like Rick Ankiel and Laynce Nix around too.
But what Washington and Mike Rizzo need to do is not overract. The core is there, like I said. Many of us have been tantalized by the rumors that Prince Fielder might be open to DC . . . but I wouldn't do it. We have Adam LaRoche coming back finally and fully healthy and when you add him to Michael Morse's emergence, you have enough power with sacrificing defense. I honestly think Fielder will end up in Los Angeles. There is also the issues with Ian Desmond, who will be at a career crossroads. This will be his third year as a starter and he's not a classic lead-off hitter. People talk BJ Upton but he might cost too much. Personally, I would think someone like Coco Crisp would be perfect because he's been on winning teams, his average was a bit down in Oakland but he stole 49 bases. He's only 31, he's a tremendous center fielder and a classic lead-off hitter. He's a winner, and we need more of that around here. So we could have a line-up like this:
- CF: Crisp
- SS: Desmond
- 3B: Zimmerman
- RF: Morse
- LF: Werth
- 1B: LaRoche
- 2B: Espinoza
- C: Ramos
I'll take that!
Now, to pitching. Again, like the offense, the core is there they just need to be allowed to grow and to be given some time to mature. Strasburg, Detwiler, and Zimmermann are your core here. Strasburg will be on a pitch count, so I expect that it will be Jordan Zimmermann that will become the workhorse next season. But a difficult choice for fans has to be made here . . . John Lannan. He had a better year and is a gritty guy, but he's also an under .500 career pitcher who's 3.78 ERA this year was the best of his career. Not exactly dominating stuff. I would part ways and do what can be done to resign Chein-Ming Wang, who the Nats worked so much to get healthy and he started to show his '09 Yankees form. And clearly they will be in the market for another starter . . . namely CJ Wilson. So again, of fantasy GM Me had my way, here is how the staff looks:
- Jordan Zimmermann
- CJ Wilson
- Stephen Strasburg
- Chein-Ming Wang
- Jordan Zimmerman.
The bullpen was a strength this year and as long as Storen and Clippard are dialed in, they will be fine. But they could get warned down if the starters don't do more here to stay in games.
If Rizzo and Co play it cool this offseason, avoid the splashy signing in exchange for the smart one, we could see the balance of power in the NL East head down I-95.
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Interesting post
Couple of points:
1) I don’t think Philly is going to fall just yet. They will retain most of their players, and while they are getting old, they have too many big name players (Holliday, Lee, Oswalt, Hamels, Utley, Ruiz, Victorino) to pack it in just yet. That pitching staff will still be tops in the league. I expect them to make a big name purchase this offseason to offset any losses they’ll encounter. Don’t get me wrong – they’re declining. But they’ll still be the team to beat next year.
On a related note, I don’t think guys like Duda, Murphy, or Tejada are “barey-major leaguers”. Tejada is a 22 year old slick MI who had a .360 OBP, but little power. Duda and Murphy can hit, but are defensively suspect. I agree they aren’t the team to beat. Moving the fences in should help them with players like Duda and Murphy, though.
Also, don’t count out the Braves. These aren’t the 2007 Mets. This is a very young team with a phenomenal young ace, closer, and a good young hitting core. Also, from what I understand, they have a lot of top minor leaguers coming up through the minors, more than the Nationals perhaps.
I still think the Phillies are the team to beat next year. By 2013, it’ll be Nationals-Braves-Phillies, and then just Nationals-Braves.
Victorino?

It’s looking more and more like Howard may miss all of next year.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
(yes I plan to post this GIF every time someone mentions his name for at least a year.)
Aim for the head baby Jesus
That
And the one where he trips on his own feet while attempting to throw home in Toronto, I think? He is one clumsy hawaiian
Whats the frequency, Kenneth?
One more quick note(s)
Lannan has had a sub-4 era in 3/4 years. I’d trade him in a package for a top piece, but I wouldn’t just let him walk – he has 2 years of arbitration left.
CJ would be a fine addition, but it’s all relative with the cost. I’m afraid it might be too much for someone with only two top years.
I don’t think Zimmermann can man the top spot and the #5 spot. Remember, the rotation flips over, so he’d be starting twice in a row ;)
Crisp would be fine if the contract is 1 year, maybe 2. I don’t want a 34 year old Crisp who was suspect at defense in center to begin with playing there with his contract blocking the addition of someone who can play it well.
I don't really get the Crisp love
He’s been OK a couple of years, but he’s mostly been a below average hitter, and a surprisingly bad fielder.
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
He's steadily unspectacular
I wouldn’t mind going with him if all else fails, but I certainly wouldn’t go into the offseason with him as the guy we want. Beating a dead horse but, how about a little more Upton consideration???
Whats the frequency, Kenneth?
2013 MLB Free Agents
inlcude some good center fielders: Michael Bourn, Matt Kemp, B.J. Upton, Melky Cabrera, snd Curtis Granderson (Tm option) 2013 MLB Free Agents from MLBTR
What is one year of B.J. Upton worth?
I wouldn't be so quick to put Wang above Lannan
Wang’s big drawing point has been his W-L record, which was affected by the Yankee teams behind him providing run support. Wang has a career ERA of 4.15, xFIP over 4 every year, and WHIP of 1.33. Lannan has a career ERA of 4.00 (and an xFIP of 4.6), and WHIP of 1.42. I’d consider them mostly interchangeable. Lannan’s also 4 years younger.
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
Philly.........
Was going to be back for one more year until I saw the Howard injury……….
It’ sthe Braves (Cards and Frisco) that the NATS should be shooting for next season…….I expect a run at 90 wins next season.
Theres no love for Crisp here what so ever. Thats a nonsense move…….Go after a great player, of course this means moving people, someof us love.
CJ Wilson is a free-agent?………I want JZIMM, STRAS, Lannen, Detwiller, Wang(cheap) MILONE/Peacock first callup…….Only a block buster #1or 2 should we go after…….
The first move is Pujols then Fielder then Moving Morse to first then trading for the best CF or LF out their………
Wahr?
The first move is Pujols then Fielder then Moving Morse to first then trading for the best CF or LF
If Morse is at first, are you planning on playing Pujols and Fielder in the OF? Or am I missing something?
I'd pay to see Fielder play left.
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Oct 9, 2011 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd pay to see Fielder play left.
On another team…
"If you ain't got the pants, you ain't got a chance." --PerryMason (on the sartorial component of being a Real Ballplayer)
by Doghouse on Oct 9, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why Werth at LF and Morse at RF?
Is that a typo, or do you really believe Morse would be better in RF than Werth? Less Range, worse arm and not to mention Werth has been an every day RF for a long time. I would also keep Lannan. He can be a grea #5 starter on a World Series team, as well as a good #4 on that same team. Wang has yet to recover fully, and for now Lannan is better than him. I see more of a
Zimmermann-Strasburg-Lannan-Wang-Milone/Detwiler.
When Peacock and Milone progress, Lannan can slide down to #4-5, or by then we would know of Wang’f full development and just choose the best of all of them. If we need a Starting pitcher after this year, there will be a free agency next year as well. Wilson and Darvish are going to receive much, much more than they deserve; let’s not be the team that is stuck to either one.
Skins rule
While I'd love to see the Nats pick up Darvish, and I'd be OK with Wilson or Fielder
There’s a lot to like about the “develop from within” strategy as well. Thinking cold-bloodedly, sacrificing the future for 2012 doesn’t make that much sense when Strasburg is going to be shut down sometime in August. With Livo and Marquis gone the rotation is going to be younger and will have better stuff; let’s see who in this crowd can actually pitch.
But right now
We have about 4-5 back of the rotation guys and two top of the rotation guys. Out of the bottom of the rotation guys, only one of them really projects to be something a little more and that’s Peacock. And that’s not even definite. A bottom heavy rotation like this isn’t bad, but it definitely isn’t great. If we get one more legitimate starter and deal one of the other guys, we’ll be right where we need to be.
I don’t know if either Wilson or Darvish is the guy we need. But it still wouldn’t be smart to leave the rotation as is next year.
Whats the frequency, Kenneth?
Agreed - in principle
But it’s a question of price. Is Sabathia worth five years at $26 million per year? More? How much more? He’s currently making $24.2 million for the next four years, so you’d have to beat that. C.J. Wilson will be looking for $18-20 million per year for 4-5 years, and given the big market teams that need pitching he might well get it. Darvish will cost more up front, but possibly less down the road (Dice-K signed for 6 years, $52 million after the posting fee of another $50 million. I’ve seen estimates for posting fees for Darvish in the $35 million range. The advantage of Darvish is that, once you win the posting fee derby, the player has a lot less leverage. Although it also doesn’t count against the salary cap, making him that much more valuable to the big market teams as well.
So – what’s it worth to the Nationals? I think the next big contract they should sign is Zimmerman, actually – extend him now while he’s coming off some injuries and still two years off from free agency. It both sends a message and may save some money – and unlike Wilson, Sabathia and Pujols, Zimmerman is still heading to his prime years. Let the kids pitch early next season, and then become buyers rather than sellers at the deadline next year. If the Brewers hold a fire sale, Greinke may become available, and others will as well.
Sign Zimmerman!
"If you ain't got the pants, you ain't got a chance." --PerryMason (on the sartorial component of being a Real Ballplayer)
Interesting ideas
and I agree about Zimmerman… which also hasn’t been really taken into consideration when we’ve been dreaming about FAs… his raise will be substantial, as will Werth’s (check out how much it goes up each year). The reality is that they are already going to have a hefty base team salary without adding anyone else.
I still like DeJesus as a realistic OFer/placeholder for this coming year.
And I second (or third, fourth, fifth?) that Crisp is a bad idea. Joe Morgan may agree with you that his being “a winner” is a strength, but I find such things rather hard to prove matters. And SBs are way way overrated (especially when you consider many of his were not much more than stat-padders: 18 of his SBs were, collectively, less of a help than one of his CS was a hinderance). He’s on the wrong side of 30, doesn’t have much power, and doesn’t get on base anywhere near what you’d want from a leadoff guy.
Finally, I agree with some others here that while you hardly bash the Braves — in fact, you largely speak well of them — I think they are almost sure to be very dangerous for years to come. In 2013, they are only on the hook for 14.7 mil. despite having Uggla (who was hardly a bust compared to Werth, cost way less, and for significantly fewer years), McCann, Hudson, and, under control, they have Jurrjens, Prado, O’Flaherty, Heyward (still very young and hardly terrible), Hanson, Venters, Kimbrell, Beachy and Freeman.
Overall, though, great stuff and I couldn’t agree more that they should be chill this offseason…
by William.Hatheway on Oct 10, 2011 12:48 PM EDT reply actions
I'm not as high on DeJesus
Offensively, he has a .776 career OPS; his OPS in 2011 (his first in Oakland) dropped 129 points to a career low .698. Defensively, he’s a below-average CF, and has spent most of the past three years playing a corner. He’s also going to be 32 in December. Fangraphs has him in the bottom tier of AL outfielders
Unless you’re advocating a return to Bowden [spit!] and his bottom-feeding, or think DeJesus is due for a major rebound, I’m decidedly on the “nuh-uh” side of the fence..
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
The one thing I do like about DeJesus though
Is that he gets on base consistently. I think the reason our overall offensive performance was so poor this past season was because our entire lineup was a bunch of streaky hitters (except for Morse who’s been on one long mashing streak over the past season and a half). When everyone’s production fluctuates almost at random like that, it’s nearly impossible to get anything going. With DeJesus, you know he’s at least a sure thing to get on base alot even if his average isn’t through the roof. If we’re going to do anything, I just hope we keep in mind how important consistency is
Whats the frequency, Kenneth?
Note "realistic" and "placeholder"
He is, as zimforprez said, an obp guy and isn’t that what everyone says we need? And all of the metrics have him within the average range for CF… and even in the corner, I’d rather Werth at center than Ankiel as a full-timer. More to the point, going back to “realistic”, the Nats are already on the hook for a lot in a year where most don’t think they’ll compete for the title, so I am only suggesting him in the context of reality. Also, sure, if you want to go with one year’s performance, he’d be terrible. But then, if management went for one year’s performance as the basis for their hires, I think we’d all soon wish for someone as stupid as Bowden…
by William.Hatheway on Oct 10, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right, of course
If we’re hoping for/expecting/counting on Werth to bounce back from last year, there’s no reason DeJesus doesn’t do the same. And the OBP argument is a good one.
I’m still not as confident as you in his ability as a CF; however, if the only way to improve the offense is to sacrifice a bit of defense, so be it. Having an average/slightly below-average CF (DeJesus or Werth) playing next to a well below-average LF (Morse) does concern me a bit.
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
Agreed.
The OF is the Nat’s biggest issue… even someone as well-thought of as Harper is still a prospect, and even the best prospects flame out sometimes. And Eury Perez is their only in-house option at CF, which doesn’t say much. So I think you are totally right that once you get past the infield dirt there is reason to worry…
by William.Hatheway on Oct 11, 2011 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Both Corey Brown and Erik Komatsu are ahead of Eury Perez
And (IMHO) are as likely or more likely to have an impact at the ML level. Not, as you say, that that says very much. Other than Harper, it’s quite possible that the only other OF in the Nationals’ sytem that has solid prospects is Destin Hood – and he’s not close either.
When did we first sign Hood again?
I feel like it was forever ago but every time I check its like he hasn’t aged.
Whats the frequency, Kenneth?
He was signed out of HS in 2008
He was a second round pick, and has moved up a level each year. What’s most encouraging is that his power has developed this year, with 13 HRs in Potomac where he’d never had more than 5 before. His average was still only .279, but his OBP was an encouraging .364. It will be interesting to see how he ranks in Sickel’s rankings this year. Last year Hood was only mentioned as one of the “others of note” in the prospect list. I suspect he cracks the Nats’ top 20 prospects, but down at the end of the list.
I have been watching the Nats for a while, always hoping for them to win.
I really think they have the potential to win 90somthing games next year. If they start to succeed now, they will have a core of young players, a good farm system, and ownership that isn’t afraid to spend $100 million on a team every year.
That's why I'm on the bandwagon now
Beat the rush :-)
This year was a good year to start :)
To be fair, it’s only my third year in DC…and I was a Yankee fan…
I am still a Yankee fan, with the Nationals my NL team
But I’m still (mostly) tolerated here :-)
Kind of the same
Hopefully they don’t turn into something like the royals, spending $10 mil each offseason and constantly dwelling in the basement.
Same, but still...
…it was hard for me to get into them this postseason. The Nationals are much more exciting right now, IMO.
-10 points
"If you ain't got the pants, you ain't got a chance." --PerryMason (on the sartorial component of being a Real Ballplayer)
-10 points for Reply Fail
But you can always get +10 points for the ever popular Inadvertent Double Post! It’s a special iPhone app.

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