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What's the Nationals' starting five for 2012?


With the understanding that Rizzo is still looking for a solid #3 for the rotation, how do the rest of you see it playing out?  I've got a gut feeling that we'll see JZimm at #1, since he'll have the injury restrictions removed, and Strasburg at #2, with an IP limit of somewhare between 130 - 150 IP.  The #3 slot is probably open to a number of FA / Trade / signing candidates, led by Darvish, Buehrle, Oswalt, then others.  I look at the re-signing of Wang as locking down the #4-5 spots with Lannan & Wang, with Milone & Peacock recycling at Syracuse until the inevatable injury callup.  If so, what happens to Detwiler? 

What's best for the team, both short-term (2012) and going forward?  Fire & fall back with any opinions. 

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I'm not convinced they need a FA pitcher

The starting pitching outperformed the offense in 2011; my vote is for the money to go there (object of the money-throwing TBD). My guess is Strasburg has the same 160-inning ceiling as Zimmermann had in 2011. (Pause for artistfork to foam over.) Zimmermann and Strasburg at 1-2 (in either order), with 3-5 Lannan, Wang, Detwiler (breaking up the two lefties). Peacock or a mid-season pickup to take over for Strasburg in September and (hopefully) thereafter.

Opinions expressed not necessarily those of management. YMMV.

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Nov 12, 2011 6:57 PM EST reply actions  

sounds like THE PLAN....

is it?

"Even when I retire and live here in Houston, I don't want to go watch American League baseball." Lance Berkman......LBIMH...

by cat daddy3000 on Nov 13, 2011 1:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Rizzo's recent comments made me look at buehrle's stats real closely

And that led to two conclusions:

First, buehrle is a lot better than i had realized. Eleven seasons of 200+ innings and double digit wins, a 120 career era+, career k/bb ratio of about 2.5/1, doesnt walk people, totally shuts down the running game – the guy’s been good. Still, i’m not sure i’d want to give him – or any FA pitcher – more than two years.

But here’s the second thing. Tommy Milone looks an awful lot like the next Mark Buehrle. Buehrle came up at age 21 – became afull time starting pitcher at age 22- with less minor league experience than Milone has now, but with the same 86-87 mph “heater” coupled with superb control. You look at Milone’s milb stats the last 3 seasons, and you would certainly consider him a prime candidate for the major league rotation ( hs’s got a much better milb record than detwiler, for example). The only reason most folks dont consider him that way is that 87 mph thing. Which is why i find the buehrle comp so instructive. Buehrle’s fasrball last year was 85.6 (per fangraphs) and at age 22 it was still under 87. But i imagine he’ll be getting 10+M a year from someone, and we’ve got Milone for mlb minimum.

My main point is just that of our 3 lefty options – lannan, detwiler, and milone – milone is the buehrliest of them all, so I would really like him to get a full shot at the 5th slot in the rotation.

As for the starting five: Strasburg, JZimm, anvd Wang have three slots; I assume Rizzo will take a serious run at buehrle or Oswalt. If he lands one of them, then my prediction is that Lannan is traded, and the 5th spot goes to one of the young guys – my vote is for Milone, with Det going to the pen and Peacock waiting in Syr – but I am not terribly confident that’s how it works out.

by dc rl on Nov 12, 2011 7:37 PM EST reply actions  

well buehrle is a gold glover, and a guy who it is almost impossible to steal on.

Milone is good at those things, but nowhere near Buehrle at them, and those matter for buehrle hugely. B makes the team that he is pitching against a station to station team. That significantly increases his double plays, and helps his ERA tons.

I think Milone could benefit from playing on the same team as Buehrle. B is know for wanting to mentor younger players a bit and milone looks like an ideal choice for mentoring.

"What you know is often the enemy of what you can learn" Bill James

by PhDBrian on Nov 14, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

all true

I’m not trying to claim that milone’s the equal of buehrle right now, but am making two other points. First, the main reason folks seem not to believe in milone is the 87 mph fastball – but that’s at least as good as buehrle’s heater whdn he got his shot 11 years ago, and now he’s one of the top 3 coveted FA starters available. Second, buehrle’s not an outlier – there are always soft tossing lefties, provided they have superior control and do the little things well (hold runners, field their position) who are successful big league pitchers. Everything in tom milone’s milb career indicates that is who is he is – his control, his k/bb ratios are way better than lannan or detwiler. Whether we land the real mark buehrle or not, the guy who is most likely to be a mark buehrle type guy for the next 10 years is milone.

by dc rl on Nov 15, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

As an Oakland A’s fan, I think that Rizzo and Billy Beane should talk about a trade. Maybe involve Trevor Cahill and Ryan Zimmerman?

by sec. 119a's fan on Nov 12, 2011 11:43 PM EST reply actions  

Cahill's good,

he’s not Ryan Zimmerman good though.

Rob

-- In baseball we trust.

by RobBobS on Nov 12, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

heh

Somehow I don’t think so.

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Nov 13, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh, NO

Zimmerman isnt going anywhere, we would get so much negative press for trading Zimm.

MOAR SEVERINO!

by jeff550 on Nov 13, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, Bro. Nats aren’t interested in being the AAAA farm team that the Expos were. I hear the Mets might deal David Wright.

"Don't mind WM...he's an all-around jerk."

by Whiter Mage on Nov 13, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Cahill, Ross, and Cardenas for Zimmerman?

by sec. 119a's fan on Nov 13, 2011 12:06 AM EST reply actions  

I don't think there's any way Zimmerman gets pried off of this team this offseason

Ryan Zimmerman is a 7+ WAR player under team control for two more seasons. Why on earth would any team want to trade that at all? Trading for multiple players just incurs the additional cost of pushing players off of the 40 man roster and possibly losing them to other teams (a real problem for the Nationals, who have three ML slots devoted to minor league players Harper, Rendon and Purke).

IF Rendon rockets through the system and IF extensions talks with Zimmerman completely collapse next year, only then would the Nationals even seriously entertain offers. And even then it’s unlikely to happen. Zimmerman is from Virginia, and has been the face of the franchise since he arrived. Seriously, don’t get your hopes up here.

by d_c_guy on Nov 13, 2011 1:08 AM EST up reply actions  

You could offer the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost

and the Nats wouldn’t agree to the trade right now.

If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!

by ricksnats on Nov 14, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Good point

They can all work miracles in the field, but don’t have much to go off of otherwise.

by BinM on Nov 14, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

ARGH!

I can’t decide whether to flag or rec this post!

by d_c_guy on Nov 14, 2011 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

In addition to being a steadying influence, getting an additional pitcher would allow the team to move Lannan for an OF

If they sign someone and Lannan isn’t traded (and they’re not just going to give him away), then Detwiler goes to the bullpen. He’s actually been extremely effective out of the bullpen, and that may end up being his destination. In that case the rotation would be Zimmermann, Strasburg, FA, Lannan, Wang, with Stammen and Detwiler in the long man roles and Storen, Clippard, Rodriguez, Mattheus and Burnett in the bullpen. If they sign a FA I think Gorzelanny is the odd man out, and gets non-tendered. Even if they go with 13 pitchers (unlikely, I think Davey would want an extra bat on the bench) I doubt that they would go with three LHP (Detwiler, Burnett and Gorzelanny) in the pen.

by d_c_guy on Nov 13, 2011 1:19 AM EST reply actions  

They might be able to move both Lannan and Gorzelanny

I agree that Gorz is the easiest to just walk away from. However, I can’ t help but think that given the need constant need for SP, we couldn’t trade Gorzelanny. Maybe we could work with Pittsburgh on something for Starling Marte or Gorkys Hernandez. I doubt that Pittsburgh would trade Marte, because he is a top prospect for them, and typically you don’t want to trade elite talent for a bunch of smaller upgrades. However, Pittsburgh is weak in a number of areas where the Nationals have some depth (Pitching, catching, MI).

by chubias on Nov 13, 2011 3:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Okay I'll bite BinM ...

 Let’s look at the lefties?

In the majors:
John Lannan (with the worst xFIP and FIP of all starters really.)
Tom Gorzelanny (can pitch in relief)

Single year or less in majors
Ross Detwiler (can pitch in relief)
Tommy Milone

In the minors … could be ready relatively quickly.
Sammy Solis
Matt Purke

Uhmmm who looks like the odd man out? Outside looking in?
Not Gorzelanny. Its Lannan, if he has value on the trade market.

On the right side:

Chien-Ming Wang

With a year a so majors experience:
Stephen Strasburg
Jordan Zimmermann

In the minors :
Craig Stammen
Bradley Meyers
Yunesky Maya

Odd man out at this point looks to be Maya. If ownership let’s Rizzo take the hit.
Doubt he is tradable. But who knows?

I think you see Oswalt brought in because.
1. Players on the Nationals want to see him in the clubhouse.
2. He sounds like he really wants to be there.

Finally there is this from Patrick:

Davey Johnson told ESPN980’s Thom Loverro and Kevin Sheehan in an interview last week when asked how active Washington will be in free agency this winter. “Maybe utilizing them on the major league level may be a little bit of a rush, but [at] this day and time, I always like to see guys come from within the system, they’ve earned the right to compete at the major league level and they have the talent.”

Johnson wants to build a winner next year … mostly from within. That means Solis and Purke and not a Buehrle.

by plebescite on Nov 13, 2011 2:00 PM EST reply actions  

If they dump Lannan for Gorzy I will be pissed

Gorzy has been consistantly worse than Lannan over their careers. Lannans pitching does make you eyes bleed, but he gets the job done, Gorzy not so much. I honestly dont think we NEED to sign another pitcher, as I find it hard to belive that all 3 of Milone, Peacock, and Detwiler will be bad. Thats why I dont think we should sign Oswalt to anything but a one year deal, because Oswalts injury problems could hurt the team down the road. That being said I would love little roy on a one year deal, and I would be ok with a 2 year deal, but if we go 3 years I will not be happy. Also another reason we dont have to sign another pitcher is that if something happens, we have the depth to go out and trade for a starter, with guys like Norris, Flores, and our MiLB pitchers, we could put together a nice package without killing the farm system

MOAR SEVERINO!

by jeff550 on Nov 13, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay I'll bite BinM ...

Ooops forgot Brad Peacock who likely fits in after Zimmermann … or before Stammen. Maybe Stammen beats him out as better in long relief?

by plebescite on Nov 13, 2011 2:04 PM EST reply actions  

how about with flowers, dinner and a movie?

or maybe just some fava beans…

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Nov 14, 2011 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Too late for that, we've been hurling insults in each others' general direction...

for a few years now, and what a long, strange trip it’s been.

Ladies & Gentlemen, Boys & Girls, may I introduce you to the blogger of a number of names (nearly all of them with an ancient Latin bend), the one & only periculum. AKA peric, aoeliano, etc., and now plebescite.

by BinM on Nov 14, 2011 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh sigh he still hasn't gotten over the fact that ...

I was spot on about Morse before anyone else …

and I was right about Riggleman … Davey’s Pirate Ship is fine by me arrrrr!!!!

BinM love to always be the expert who is always right …

Michael Morse AAAA? Hahahahahahaahahaahahahaahaha HA!!!

by plebescite on Nov 15, 2011 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Gloat if you feel the need, but why?

I’ll concede Morse to you, and you were pretty hard on Riggleman’s demise as well; Well played on both. However, since you broached the subject, we could run down a few that have been slightly ‘off-target’ as well…
- Michael Aubrey (your ‘dark horse’ pick out of ST, 2011) on Goessling’s site.
- Tom Gorzelanny as a bona-fide #2SP for 2011 (faded, then sent to BP) on multiple sites.
- Corey Brown, who you at one point declared as a ‘five-tool player’, outrighted to SYR.
- The continued derision of Lannan, who posts suprisingly decent numbers year after year, but is still on the 25-man roster.

There are more, but I believe the point has been illustrated.

"Things are going great, and they're only gettin' better..." Timbuk3

by BinM on Nov 16, 2011 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

get free agents

face it we dont hace good pitching at all we need to get cheap good free agent pitchers not cj wilson

by Halo on Nov 15, 2011 8:01 AM EST reply actions  

Good pitchers aren't cheap.

The top of the Nats rotation is young and already very good, with a very good chance of getting better. The rest of the rotation is either young and getting better, or older, adequate guys who can pitch ok, win games and hold down a spot in the rotation until. even more of the Nats young pitching develops.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Nov 15, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Um not good picthing

I like our pitching a lot

Strasburg-Hes Strasburg, must I say more
Zimmermann-Was strong all year last year, and could be better this year
Wang-Showed good improvement in his starts, so I would expect him to slot into the 3 spot fine if needed. Hes far riskier than the first 2, but im not worried
Lannan-Been consitant his entire career. Yes his pitching makes your eyes bleed, but as a 4SP, hes fine
DetwIler-Finaly showed something at the big league level, if he faulters we have Milone, Peacock, and for now Meyers to back him up at AAA.

MOAR SEVERINO!

by jeff550 on Nov 15, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

We don't have good pitching at all?

Let me introduce you to Stephen Strasburg and Jordan Zimmermann. Both were impact performers last year, and both should be pitching significantly more innings in 2012 than they did in 2011. That’s not a good rotation in and of itself, but it’s a heckuva start. I’m not sure that “cheap good free agent pitchers” really exist. Every year a couple of reclamation projects do well on the cheap (Freddy Garcia in 2011) but most don’t (Brad Penny). If you knew who was going to do well, they wouldn’t be cheap.

What pitchers are you recommending they Nationals go after?

by d_c_guy on Nov 15, 2011 9:40 AM EST reply actions  

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