Desmond to OF?
by dcsportsfan24 on Nov 3, 2011 8:29 AM EDT
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There have been a couple reports that say that the Nats are considered a favorite for landing the services of SS Jose Reyes. Ignoring arguments for and against this move and just thinking hypothetically suppose the Nats do sign Jose Reyes to be their new SS and leadoff man. Could Ian Desmond be moved to the outfield, CF preferably or RF with Werth moving over to Center? Desmond certainly seems to have the speed and arm to pull it off and he is a great guy who seems to be coming around and would be good to have on the team in the future. I remember that before the 2010 season when they still had Guzman they had him play out there a little but do not remember how it actually went so I am curious as to what you remember slash your opinions on this subject.
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He doesn't have the bat for corner OF
Generally corner OF is reserved for those with some thump in their bats. Desi isn’t there yet and (frankly) is unlikely to ever be a major run producer – he’s more of a supporting player in a lineup. Which is fine for a SS or a CF if they bring their glove. The questions: (1) will he play CF (I seem to recall hearing that he had resisted overtures towards moving to second base; OF would be a much bigger transition); and (2) can he play CF. There have been a lot of SS that have transitioned to CF successfully (Mickey Mantle for one). But that doesn’t mean that Desmond can do it. He would have to be willing to go down to Syracuse and learn, and that would also mean giving up completely on Corey Brown.
I think he could be ok out there
he’s started one game at RF, none at CF. I think he had a defensive talent to pull it off but his offense needs to be better for him to start anywhere on the field. for the sake of argument in the reyes scenario, i could see it working but in a vacuum i dont think desi has any business in the outfield if there’s an infield spot open for him and at this time no one is pushing him out of that
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion man
With all this discussion about a dire need for a center fielder
How’s all this affect Harper? If Desmond gets shifted to CF, then either Morse gets traded or Harper languishes in the minors or Desmond becomes a questionable bench guy. None of those prospects excite me.
Plus, I don’t believe for a second any rumors about whether the Nats will or won’t be picking up players X and Y.
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
Or we move Morse back to first like pretty much everyone on the boards would like to do.
Harper comes up and plays LF like everyone imagines will happen. And we move LaRoche and Marrero for what we can get for them.
Trade LaRoche?
It seems unlikely. But more to the point, what will they do with Fielder then???
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
Attaboy Robbob!
Never give up! Never surrender!
Pray for salary relief?
If I had to choose between taking Reyes or Fielder, then I think I would pick Fielder. If only because aging power hitting 1B> aging speedy SS.
This isn't a real problem.
If the Nationals acquire Reyes to play SS, then Desmond will play SS in the 125 games that Reyes is on the DL for. My guess is that if they were to bid on Reyes, then they will likely trade Desmond for a more offensively inclined UT IF, a real CF, or they will actually keep if for if Reyes breaks down. However, I think if they were going to acquire Reyes, then they would keep Ankiel for defense in CF.
Just wondering (really)
Who is a “more offensively inclined UT IF”? Almost by definition, utility infielders are “glove” guys, not bat guys. Unless you want to call Michael Young a utility infielder, I’m not seeing much that would be better offensively than Desmond.
But then I watch the Nats almost exclusively, so perhaps I’m missing some pool of offensively adept utility guys?
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
I would consider Jerry Hairston an "offensively inclined utility infielder".
His bat is better than his glove.
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
While I liked what Jerry did for us in his short stay here,
I wouldn’t consider him an offensive upgrade over Desmond. Would you?
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
As a utility guy, yes
I think he can play more positions than Desmond, so he gets the pass mostly by default.
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
But if I understand your response, you're not saying he's an offensive upgrade to Desmond
Which is what I was asking. I can’t imagine making a straight-up trade of Desmond for Hairston. To me, Desi’s still worth a lot more.
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
I agree,
because Desmond, to me, is a reasonable Major League starting shortstop, which is a lot harder to find than a utility guy. Unless I’m specifically trying to find a utility guy, Desmond is indeed more valuable.
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
He probably can right now, mostly because of Desmond's reluctance to play other positions.
Considering Desmond is faster, with better reflexes and a stronger arm, I would assume Desmond could play pretty much any position better than Jerry, if he got some reps.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
I should clarify
I didn’t really mean trading him directly for a Jerry Hairston-type. More that we might trade Desmond for something we value, and then acquire a bat that can occasionally play IF. I suppose this does commit a fallacy in believing that some of the “little pieces” are easy to pick up. When I say “little pieces” I mean the 2.0 WAR 5th slot SP that cost the team peanuts, or a back-up 2B that comes that hits .270/.344/.383. Niether of those things are easy to find, and that is my mistake. I do think that Reyes would be a mistake at his believed price. He might be an upgrade if we got him on mostly incentives, but my guess is that the Nationals should pass to save some money for the increasing cost of guys like Desmond, Ramos, Espinosa, JZimm, and Morse.
Reyes changes the plan significantly
He allows them to not pursue a cf as hard and to concentrate on another starting pitcher. Preferably one who can eat innings and relieve some pressure on the bullpen every fifth day. Ankiel or someone like him is then fine for cf and you don’t have to overpay for a questionable talent like BJ Upton.
Jose Reyes.....
Great talent…..but scary. How close was he to being completely out of baseball just two seasons ago? Didn’t he have some type of degenerative condition? I’d love to see him wearing a Curly W cap, but anyone who has been local to this area for any amount of time should shudder when they think of Albert in Baltimore. I would hate to see the Nats sign Reyes to a similarly huge five year deal like Belle received, but then only see him play for two seasons of it. That is the only reason I would not want to see Reyes signed by the Nats….otherwise, I could care less about his tantrums when called out at 3rd.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
I'd love to see the player from the first few months of the 2011 season wearing a Curly W cap
The oft injured occasional malcontent from many of his non-contract seasons? Not so much. Pass.
still can’t deny that he is one of the best in the game at his position…..when healthy. I would love to see him on the team, but NOT for what it will take to get him. Even though I was wrong about the degenerative condition, he still seems to have problems with injuries, and yes, Albert Belle still comes to mind when I think of what it would take to get Reyes.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
In the last 7 seasons
Reyes has had only 1 season (2009) with less than 126 games played and less than 586 plate appearences.
True.......
…..and there were 4 seasons that he played more than 150, and a couple where he played 160 games. In fact, if you erase 2009, when he only played 36 games, he has averaged 148 games per season since he became a regular. Also, erasing that same season, he has averaged 635 AB’s during those same 6 seasons. I think, however, that everyone is more concerned with his last three seasons, where he only played in 36, 126 and 133 games respectively. However, to be fair, Reyes has proven to be more reliable injury-wise than our own Ryan Zimmerman, and if you consider a lineup that includes both……well, that is a pretty formidable lineup. Add to that either a top flight CF, or the behemoth 1B that everyone is coveting, and the Nats become a favorite in the NL East, and a WS contender. Still, Reyes is a gamble considering the huge contract that he will likely demand.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
He's also a gamble given that he doesn't draw walks and so his OBP is heavily reliant on BA
And his 2011 season was SO out of whack with his previous career numbers. His average of .337 was 30 points higher than he’d ever hit before – and that was in 69 games his rookie year in 2003! His OBP was 43 points higher than his career OBP. His career OPS+ is a grand total of 106 – and that’s with the 143 he posted in 2011. Prior to that his totals for the previous four years were 103, 101, 118, and 102.
Nor is he a top fielding SS (UZR’s for the past four seasons: 2008 1.8; 2009 -0.9; 2010 -5.0 (!); 2011 -3.1). If you average his UZR/150 for the past four years is -3.05, with his best year (1.8) coming in 2008.
This is a classic buy high mistake waiting to happen. I fervently hope that the Nationals aren’t the team that makes that mistake.
by d_c_guy on Nov 3, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I am not disagreeing that he is a gamble, and I agree that this is a classic buy high situation….I think I made that clear, and even compared it to a possible Albert Belle scenario. However, erasing that fact, you can give me his “averages” and I will take them! You can’t deny the fact that a lineup with him in it, is better than what we currently put on the field, and there is no SS available that is better. And adding Fielder to that scenario, and a SP (whether it be Wilson, another classic buy high situation, or Buehrle), would vault this team to an instant WS contender….especially if Reyes and Zimmerman could give the Nats at least 140 games per season, and be there for the playoffs.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
I'd rather they use the $$$ it would take to sign Reyes for other purposes
Yes, a career average Reyes is an upgrade – but how much of an upgrade? Given the money it will take, that’s money not being used to sign a good pitcher (Yu Darvish!), extend a pitcher (James Shields?) after a trade or extend the FOTF. To say nothing of the need to upgrade the OF.
by d_c_guy on Nov 3, 2011 3:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
With those stats....
he really smells like a guy who was playing for his free agent contract. Look for much lower production once he’s shown the money.
Let’s learn from the Werth deal, shall we?
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
I’m still a supporter of the Werth deal…..without Werth, the Nats do not win 80 games in 2011, or finish third.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
Depends on who would have been playing there instead.
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
Oh, how could I forget! MVP, MVP, MVP! lol Hey, I liked the kid, just don’t want to see him on the roster in 2012!
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
You got your wish - Astros picked him up!
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
I’m speaking in terms of the overall player…..leadership and all. He brought much more to the team than just his ability to play RF
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
Yeah, I figured that's what you meant, but I remain unconvinced
As RobBob documented, the guy has been seen to act like a real jerk in public: to me, that’s a sign of a guy who may not in fact be all he’s cracked up to be in the clubhouse (betcha there’s a few guys in there who aren’t enamored of his act).
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
There are other instances I've learned of
in which Werth comes off as too standoffish (or, rude even) with the fans; but this may not actually carry over to how he interacts with his teammates or the media.
So, I have my doubts about his ability to sell himself or the team to the fan base (which is, realistically, part of his job), but he may well be a strong, positive presence in the clubhouse. Or he may be a cancer.
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
Didn’t he put together the whole “smurfs” dress-up party for the rookies? Maybe he just doesn’t like fans or the media…..or Nyjer Morgan! lol I could care less, as long as he helps bring another baseball championship to the city. One thing for sure,we have another 6 with Jayson, so we have to make the best of it.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
Morse credited Cora with the idea, Werth for really making it happen
by d_c_guy on Nov 3, 2011 3:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
More #actionman than #ideaman?
"If you ain't got the pants, you ain't got a chance." --PerryMason (on the sartorial component of being a Real Ballplayer)
I think he's both
He’s universally credited with the President’s Race intervention, for example …
I’ll rec that.
If Sammy Solis would just learn Satchel Paige's "hesitation pitch", he'd be in DC right now.
he's BAA-AAACK!
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
How do you get that he's more reliable than Zimmerman?
Because he’s played longer? Since Zimmerman became a regular in 2006, he’s played 825 games, Reyes has played 767. Plus, Zimmerman injuries have been less chronic. Its true that Reyes had 4 seasons in 7 where he was healthy enough to play 150 games. However, none of those seasons were in the last 3 years, where he has missed 191 games. Factoring out the serious injury in 2009, he still missed almost 30 games a year for the last two years. He might end up being more reliable than Ryan Zimmerman, but I don’t think that you can make that arguement yet. Hopefully, both players will go on to play 150+ games every year for the next 5-10 years.
Reyes, even WITH his injury in 2009, has “averaged” almost 30 more ABs per season since both became regulars. I’m sure one batting lead-off and the other batting third plays into that a little. However, since each became a regular, Reyes has averaged 132 games per season, and that INCLUDES 2009, in which he had the serious injury that limited him to 36 games, but Zimmerman has only averaged 137 since he bacame a regular. I do not count their rookie years. Take out 2009, and Reyes has averaged almost 150 games per season. My comment was not to criticize Zimmerman, but call it what it is and be fair…..Reyes has had some injury problems, but not as badly as we make it out to be. At best, the two have been overall equals in reliability since they became regulars, which is only separated by one season. I still agree that he is a risk, considering the contract he will demand and his status the past three seasons, but we already have fans saying the same thing about Zimmerman….read some of the comments on here and on Nationals dot com. BTW, I’m not one of those fans; I think we should give Zim the “Red Porch” if he wants it.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
Of course Reyes has more AB
He has played on teams that actually hit. It’s hard to pile up at bats in a lineup with 3-4 guys hitting under .200 (NOT including the pitcher).
If Reyes regresses to his mean (career OPS+ of 106 to go with his mediocre defense) then even if he stays healthy your team may well have Jayson Werth II – paying surf & turf prices for hamburger production.
by d_c_guy on Nov 3, 2011 3:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree...DO NOT want Reyes.
I’m convinced all this chatter about him and the Nats is being driven by the fevered imagination of his agent AND super lazy media types 9i refuse to call them journalists).
"player development" should not be gladiator games. by cat daddy3000 on Aug 6, 2011
Couple things
First, ABs are not a good measure of reliable playing time because players on a team that hits well will get significantly more ABs.
Second, saying that Reyes is a healthier player because he has averaged more games per season since he started is also a bad representation, because it allows him to spread his recent injuries over his early health. The fact of the matter is that over the last 5 years, Zimmerman has played about 60 more games in the MLB. And while Zim missed significant time in ‘08 he came back to play 157 games in ’09. Meanwhile, Reyes was significantly injured in ’09, and hasn’t played a full season since. Yet, you seem to think that his average is about 150 games per season.
Reyes has played 259 Games the past two seasons…..Zim has played 243. You want to bring up 2009, fine…..that would then favor Zim by a 5 game per season average. Take out Reye’s 2009 campaign, and he holds a significant edge. The fact is, that both have had great healthy seasons, and each has had mediocre ones as well….but the most recent two seasons favors Reyes.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
It's foolish to compare Zimmerman to Reyes
Favor Reyes? In the last two seasons, in which Reyes has played more than Zimmerman, Zimmerman has earned 9.7 WAR in his 243 games to Reye’s 9.1 in 259. In two of the past three seasons Zimmerman has put up a significantly higher WAR total than Reyes did in his best season.
Yes, if you limit or expand the scope of inquiry in ways favorable to Reyes,
then he will appear healthier. My point in discussing the recent seasons was that Reyes has shown that he can come back full-strength yet. Zimmerman has once already.
Do We Need To Make A Trade? Really?
Adding Reyes AND Fielder…..expensive, risky, extremely risky, but wow. And the best part…..no worries with having to trade away our future.
Reyes – SS
Ankiel – CF
Zimmerman – 3B
Fielder – 1B
Werth – RF
Morse – LF
Espinosa – 2B
Ramos – C
Pitchers:
Strasburg
Zimmermann
Buehrle
Wang
Lannan/Detwiler
Storen (CL)
Clippard
H-Rod
Ryan Madson
Mattheus
Burnett
And any formula of the others:
Kimball (When he returns…2013?)
Gorzelanny
Balester
Coffee
Stammen
Severino
Keeing Desmond, Nix and LaRoche also on the roster, although I do not know LaRoche’s numbers working from the bench…..but it would only be one season anyway, and possibly only a half season if he is traded.
I love it…..may not like it three years from now, but 2012 and 2013, I love it.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
Well, I see that you've been standing over the Hot Stove too long and cooked your brain!
Heh.
Plus your scenario does NOT account for the young Cyborg who will make a welcome appearance sometime in 2012.
AND you forgot YU DARVISH! ;-)
"player development" should not be gladiator games. by cat daddy3000 on Aug 6, 2011
You pay that much for Reyes & Fielder
Then you’d better be prepared to back up the Brink’s truck for Zimmerman. Where does it stop? Paying big money for free agents coming off big years hasn’t worked well for the Mets and Cubs; I have my doubts that it’s a good strategy for the Nationals
by d_c_guy on Nov 3, 2011 3:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The Lerners have their own brinks truck….no problems there. Plus, it has worked well for YOUR Yankees! lol
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
Actually, as a Yankee fan for decades
I can tell you that the “sign everybody” approach has worked maybe once, in 2009. The runs of WS teams from 1976-1981 and 1996-2003 were largely built through homegrown players and canny trades. When Big Stein (of his offspring) get too involved and go off on a “sign everyone” jag the team slips.
If you track Steinbrenner’s level of involvement with the roster over time, it inversely correlates to success. Seriously. And the approach hasn’t worked very well for the Redskins either.
by d_c_guy on Nov 3, 2011 4:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So, by signing Fielder and Reyes, to go along with Werth, I’d say that we still would have more of a homegrown and trade flavor than a “sign everyone” flavor, wouldn’t you? Zimmerman is homegrown. Espinosa is homegrown. Ramos and Morse aquired via trade, and partially homegrown. Ankiel basically holding a position for homegrown Harper. Stras, Zim II, Detwiler and Lannan all homegrown. No big FA acquisitions in the bullpen, all either homegrown or acquired via trade. That’s how this business is done correct? Grow your crop, make a trade or two, and pick up FAs to fill in the needs? I keep hearing that we don’t have the “power” at 1B, with no one in MiLB that is ready….so Fielder provides it, correct? We don’t have a lead-off, and no one in MiLB ready, but Reyes provides it. We still need that “one” SP, and Buehrle provides it…..so, what’s the problem? All available without the need of giving up the farm to get them….just money. Would, or wouldn’t, these prospects make DC an instant contender? I don’t think my comments have AT ALL suggested that we “sign everyone”, don’t you agree? I’ve merely suggested that we fill in the gaps where there is a need.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
Money ... and their first round draft pick for signing a FA
I’m not advocating for not signing anyone. I’m kind of in the Yu Darvish camp, for example, and while I don’t think first base is a NEED (Morse did hit a bunch of HR’s playing first last year), a big bat would be useful. I just wish that there was a Fielder-type bat that could play CF. I do think that CF/leadoff are needs, but my problem with Reyes is that he plays a position (middle infield) at which the Nationals are very deep, and I’m not at all confident that his performance this year is indicative of the performance they could reasonably expect him to provide. And while the performance that the Nationals could reasonably expect based on Reyes’s career (slightly above average offense, slightly below average defense) would be an upgrade from what the Nationals have, I’m not sure that upgrade is worth $12-14 million a year for the next 4-5 seasons. The cost there is what the expense prevents in other upgrades and/or dealing with unexpected setbacks.
And the Yankees, Red Sox and Redskins (and Cubs, and Mets, etc) could certainly tell you that goign out and signing a bunch of players does not make a team an instant contender (although it certainly helps).
Again….signing Reyes and Fielder is not “going out and signing a bunch of players”. If it is, then going out and signing Darvish and a CF/Leadoff hitter is doing the same thing….correct? And to get your CF/Leadoff guy, you better get some of the farm packed up, because it’s gonna take a nice trade to do so. And Darvish? That’s going to take more than a bundle of cash. The truth is, I’ve never been excited about the Nats signing either Reyes or Fielder, because I’m more of a build from within type…..and I also share the same sentiment concerning Reyes possibly becoming another Al Belle, and Fielder becoming another Dimitri Young…..but our discussion has proven to me the tremendous benefits of getting those two, if the Nats decided to go that route. And if they did, I think it certainly makes the Nats an instant top contender for the NL East crown….I guarantee that Philly Nation does NOT want to see the Nats make that large of a splash. Davey Johnson wants more power, we need a leadoff hitter with speed and SB capabilities…..those two meet those needs and are available. This discussion, however, is a mute point, because it is NOT going to happen anway.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
I wish there was a Fielder-type bat as a CF available, too
but such players don’t exist outside of the Nats’ minor league system (ahem).
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
It is all about price
Sure, with infinite resoureces we could afford Fielder and would want him out there at 1B. However, if signing Fielder means creating holes by failing to for arbitration on guys, then I think we risk becoming to selective and jettisioning talent to early. None of us know what the final target is for Nationals salary, but even without a signing a major FA, then salary is going to grow by a significant amount just with arbitration. The guys that cost 400K-500K now are going to make start costing the team millions. The small increases in the cost for Morse, JZim, and even Lannan with significantly increase the cost of the team in the next two to three years.
And Fielder is a great talent, I am not sure how he will affect the team’s overall budget. And if he expects 8years and $180MM, then I think that you are lining up an enormous drag on the line-up during the 2016 season, when Strasburg comes a FA. Fielder might continue to be a great player until retires at 38, or he might turn out like his father who ceased being an elite player at 32. (And that is considering 108 OPS as elite). What could the team do with $90MM dollars? Furthermore, even if Fielder continues to hit, if his defense gets significantly worse, then we can’t move him to DH.
On the upside, most of the big spenders are set at 1B. And he’ll be competing with Pujols for the major attention. So it might be possible that the Nationals could get him at a relative bargain.
Although RobBob is reliably on the Prince Fielder bandwagon
I believe that this post alluded to the eyeblack wearing baseball cyborg currently tearing up the AFL :-)
In a rare moment of weakness a year or more ago...
Rizzo (or was it Kasten?) let slip that they expect to hit the $100M range before long. They do have the money to spend
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
Willie Mays and Ken Griffey Jr. are retired.
I just wish that there was a Fielder-type bat that could play CF.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
Plus……the 81 home sell-outs every season, after the Nats become a contender, will generate nearly 200mil per season in ticket sales alone! We can afford it!
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
You are almost correct……I erroneously selected the Cubs $52 average as opposed to DC’s $30.63 average; however, that $30.63 average does not include the luxury suites, which would drive that number north a little. In fact, I read somewhere last year that DC was also near $50 when all areas of the stadium are included. Still, I have a feeling that when this team begins to contend, there will certainly be an increase in average ticket prices. What is shocking about the average ticket prices in baseball, is that Atlanta has an average price of $17. In fact, one third of all teams in MLB have an average ticket price below $20, to include the LA Angels. DC is one of the highest in MLB, but still averages nearly 25K per game….which is obviously helped a little by the Phillies. My comment about “sell-outs” was made tongue-in-cheek anyway, but having a contender would certainly bring in a lot of revenue for the DC ownership, which is truly my main point.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
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