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Washington Nationals: Center Fielder And Pitcher Away? Or Already There?

Surprised by the Washington Nationals' relative inaction thus far this winter? They did sign Chien-Ming Wang early. They non-tendered Doug Slaten and offered contracts to Jordan Zimmermann, John Lannan, Tyler Clippard, Jesus Flores and Michael Morse. Washington signed outfielders Jason Michaels and Brett Carroll, traded reliever for reliever with Detroit in the deal that sent Collin Balester to the Tigers for Ryan Perry, inked right-handed reliever Jeff Fulchino and added infielder Andres Blanco. When the Nats announced Friday that they hadn't bid on Yu Darvish another potential rotation addition's name was crossed off the list. Mark Buehrle was reportedly the top target this winter, but he signed in Miami. Roy Oswalt wants a multi-year deal the Nats apparently aren't comfortable handing out and other teams like the A's who have pitchers to trade are asking too much...

Star-divide

When Nats' skipper Davey Johnson was asked about adding pitching this winter during an interview on 106.7 the FAN in D.C. he responded by asking rhetorically, "Did you pay attention last year? Did you see how [Brad] Peacock pitched? Did you see how [Tom] Milone threw the ball? We've got a guy named [Stephen] Strasburg and another guy named [Jordan] Zimmermann. This is a pretty good crop of guys." Barring any additions, D.C. GM Mike Rizzo told MLB Network Radio hosts Jim Bowden and Casey Stern in an early November interview that the Nats see, "[Stephen] Strasburg, [Jordan] Zimmermann, [John] Lannan, [Chien-Ming] Wang and one of the young pitchers, [Ross] Detwiler, [Tommy] Milone or [Brad] Peacock as our five starters."

The GM admitted in the interview that he felt that in order to, "... combat the rotations of the Braves and the Marlins and the Phillies and even the Mets, we have to strengthen our rotation a little bit," with what he once described as a veteran/mentor-type inning-eating sort of pitcher and more recently described as, "... an arm that could fit in with Strasburg and Jordan Zimmermann and give us a real potent top three guys in the rotation." The Nationals haven't found that pitcher yet, however, passing on Yu Darvish and thus far failing to find a trade partner amongst those teams looking to deal a top-of-the-rotation-type arm.

Davey Johnson told 106.7 the FAN's Mike Wise and Holden Kushner he didn't know if the center fielder the Nationals were after was out there either, explaining not long after he was officially announced as the 2012 manager that, "I don't foresee us doing that in the free agent market. I see us maybe picking up an outfielder out of the free agent market, but I don't so much see us getting a front-line starter that way."

The Nats revisited talks with the Tampa Bay Rays but any attempt to acquire B.J. Upton fell short once again. No one knows how international options like Cuban center fielder Yoenis Cespedes or Yakult Swallows' center fielder Norichika Aoki's talents will translate to the major league game. Are either of the two unproven outfielders options for a team that entered the winter saying they felt they were one or two players away from competing in the NL East? Davey Johnson boldly told reporters when his return was announced that he thought the Nationals already had the talent to compete in 2012 and he said his goal will be nothing short of an NL East title.

"A pennant," Johnson said when asked what his goal was for the upcoming campaign, "Winning the pennant. Winning the division. Winning the National League. I couldn't have said that last Spring. I didn't think the talent was ready, but after being there and seeing the progress that some of the young players made, I think we definitely can contend and I would be sorely disappointed if we didn't do just that. The talent's there."

There are still issues to be sorted out in the outfield, however, with Johnson pushing for Bryce Harper making the Opening Day roster, and the Nats saying they could always go with Jayson Werth in center if they have to. The Nationals have to rebuild their bench. Rizzo's been clear about the need to add pitching all winter, but both he and Davey Johnson have said they're comfortable with the arms the Nats already have if they can't find what they're after or don't like the cost.

Chris Marrero was supposed to play a role, in Johnson's mind at least, and he's out until the All-Star Break according to most reports (torn hamstring). Adam LaRoche's recovery and return isn't the foregone conclusion some seem to think it is. There are question marks at the top and back of the rotation. Another solid season from the bullpen's not guaranteed. There's no doubt Michael Morse can duplicate his 2011 stats, right? Is Davey Johnson right that the talent's already there? Can the Nationals afford to stand pat?

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I worry that Davey will continue experimenting with roles, if he's not given new guys...

no long relief for Henry R., Johnson!!!

"Even when I retire and live here in Houston, I don't want to go watch American League baseball." Lance Berkman......LBIMH...

by cat daddy3000 on Dec 17, 2011 7:06 PM EST reply actions  

I don't think they are going to stay pat.

We might be surprised by a signing or trade any day now. Just call me optimistic.

by gengreen17 on Dec 17, 2011 7:12 PM EST reply actions  

Just read on Rotoworld that the Brewers had the high bid on Aoki.

Gotta wonder if the Nats even bid. Are they convinced Harper is going to make the team? Unless Rizzo has something up his sleeve I’m disappointed they didn’t get him.

by mstomper on Dec 17, 2011 7:47 PM EST reply actions  

booooooooo....it's all over the web.....

"Even when I retire and live here in Houston, I don't want to go watch American League baseball." Lance Berkman......LBIMH...

by cat daddy3000 on Dec 17, 2011 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Not too upset about this, but if they end the winter with Bernadina, Ankiel or Werth as their CF...

I’ll start getting angry then.

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Dec 17, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm getting angry now that Rizzo isn't going to add O

this year.
Another season of a SPAD-only team does not inspire. It puts an unreasonable burden on the pitchers with almost no margin for error (cough-Lannan-cough).

Hey, Rizzo… I’ll take O, O, O instead of Ho, Ho, Ho for my holiday cheer!

"player development" should not be gladiator games. by cat daddy3000 on Aug 6, 2011

by MissB on Dec 17, 2011 8:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

They'll upgrade by staying pat

A healthy Zimmerman and Laroche will add ally to werth and morse. I also like some of the players with an extra year of experience. We could be look at 100 hrs and 140-150 doubles for Our 3-6 hitters.

You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!

by Bsullivan on Dec 17, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

We will still have huge gaping holes in the line-up

In our 10 win improvement, almost all of them were delivered in the night by the WAR fairy. What I mean by this is that JZimm, Espinosa, Ramos, and Morse, had never posted a season above 1 WAR before 2011. To assume that 2011 is their new baseline from which they will improve with exp. is absurdly foolish. We have some holes in the line-up; fill them and we are a legit contender. Don’t fill them, and we waste a season.

I am not saying that we should bet the farm on 2012, but we have two very clear areas of need. First base and center field. Fortunately, both of these positions are the kind of places that we can add offense, given that we ranked in the bottom half of the MLB in just about every catergory.

Adam LaRoche’s best season saw him put up a WAR of 2.5. More commonly he’s put of seasons of between 1.7-2.2. He’s a role-player at best. Our best prospects for 1b, Tyler Moore and Chris Marerro, are not exactly star level. Moving Morse just opens another OF hole. 1b and corner OFs are generally where the power is concentrated. Given that we hope to have Werth in RF for the forseeable future, we are a bit light on power. I still support the decision to bring Werth to DC, and understand that DC needed to overpay to get him. Werth gives value with plus defense, and decent OBP, while still giving enough power to not be laughable. Either way, we should get a power bat at 1b or corner OF. Why do we need a power bat? Because our offense was good for 24th in the MLB in runs scored and 17th for HR’s.

More importantly, however, we’ll need the lead-off hitter (along with hoping that everybody adds 20-30 points to there OBP). Preferably, we want the fast kind of lead-off hitter that can get to second, so we don’t set up double-plays on infield singles all the time. And if there was on spot on the baseball field where you want speed it would be in center.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

exactly

Which is why not taking a flyer on Aoki is inexplicable. There’s no guarantee he pans out as a quality starting CF, but (a) he’s not terribly costly, and(b) the things he may be able to provide if he does pan out are precisely what the team needs – obp, speed, and cf defense. And if he’s not so great, then you have a slightly pricey 4th OF – is that such a big deal?

I can understand, and even defend, not going all out for theFA pitchers, or for Reyes or Fielder. I can’t understand this.

by dc rl on Dec 18, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Not true

We can’t sign a 1st baseman and a cf. Beyond having Laroche , are we ready to block Harper? Where does harper play? Morse will play left, and werth will be in right.

It hurts our eg. To try and fill these two holes. But maybe Rizzo has his eyes for someone in particular at one of these two poisons, not named aoki.

You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!

by Bsullivan on Dec 18, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Damn iPad (first world problems)

You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!

by Bsullivan on Dec 18, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying that we need to sign both.

I’m saying we need to find solutions for both. Additionally, I am open to possibility that Morse will never repeat his 2011 performance. He just had his best year ever at 29, but we don’t really have much to compare that with. He had 685 PA’s before this year when he had 575. Assuming that he regresses even a little to his 2010 numbers of .289/.352/.519, he would be a middle of the road 1B about 12th in terms of OPS.

Additionally, I believe that it is more important to acquire the lead-off CF than the first base.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll forgive them if they land somebody better through trade

but there is little reason to believe that is going to happen.

by chubias on Dec 17, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

And Give Up What?

Aoki is inexpensive and the Nats would not have to give up any talent.

by JamesFan on Dec 18, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Hence, why they would need to be forgiven for failing to land him. I was/am a major supporter of signing Aoki.

We do have a few pieces that we can afford to trade. We have some depth at catcher, middle infield, and a few pitching prospects.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I won’t mind Werth in center, they have to make room for Prince and the Cyborg.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Dec 18, 2011 12:08 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

+eyeblackooze

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Dec 18, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm just baffled at this point

I was fine with the whole Buehrle thing. I would much rather have seen them make a play for C.J. Wilson if I’d had to decide between the two anyway. Still, to have not placed a bid on Darvish and see Aoki’s posting fee be so cheap to the Brewers. Seriously, he’s exactly what the Nats have been preaching that they’re after (leadoff type in CF). They made the big production of it being “Phase II” when they signed Jayson Werth last year. If you’re truly in Phase II, you can’t make one big signing one year and then continually fail to try and address team needs the following year.

by bluelineswinger on Dec 17, 2011 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm still hoping for the Bullwinkle magic act....

with Rizzo pulling a tiger out of the hat in addition to the collection of ratty rabbits he’s already produced!

"player development" should not be gladiator games. by cat daddy3000 on Aug 6, 2011

by MissB on Dec 17, 2011 8:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Unbelievable!

Taking a pass on a capble, on-base, athletic centerfielder who is inexpensive? We need some explanation on this one.

by JamesFan on Dec 18, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I reall dont get what the puck Rizzo is doing

Why the hell would you not bid 3mil of Aoki, when the best alternate is Cody Ross. If I have to put up with a Bernadina/Cameron platoon in CF I will be pissed. We are going to be like last year where we are forced to go with some scrub like Ankiel as our starting Cf, or force a not ready Harper into the majors, and wonder when he cant hit above .250 I am fine with everything that happened before this, but to let a team with 2 CF EXACTLY like Aoki beat you out really sends a bad message. At worst Aoki is a 4th OF, which is something else we need. If we go with what we have in house for 2012 we will not be a playoff team, and we would have to go with a bench looking something like this

Jesus Flores
Roger Bernadina
Steve Lombardozzi
Seth Bynum
Jesus Valdez.

That is not a playoff caliber bench, especialy with the lack of ML depth we currently have. I am worried we are starting to way over value our players, which forces us out of any chance at FA’s We are currently at the point where we are talking about signing a guy like Scott, or Idanez, or Reed Johnson to START for us. The pitching is fine, but the O is terrible, and wont improve much without help

MOAR SEVERINO!

by jeff550 on Dec 17, 2011 8:43 PM EST reply actions  

I don't see much harm in reviewing an option and leaving unimpressed.

After scouting Darvish over a dozen times or whatever it was, to not even put a bid on him means they feel like they can find better fits around here. Whether it was a miniscule bid or no bid at all on Aoki, either way it shows how they viewed him. If they want guys like Upton and Bourjos, it’s OK to wait until Upton’s price comes down or Bourjos becomes available. Or if they want one of the many options on next years market, it’s OK to go with a one year stop gap. I don’t want to see them settle for someone who won’t allow them to get who they really want down the road. That’s how we were graced with LaRoche’s presence anyways.

Whats the frequency, Kenneth?

by ZimforPrez on Dec 17, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Hallelujah

I like the thoughts.

Plus you have to look at the angels and the cluster they now have. They may have a high price for bourjous now, but they have a cluster over there with Trumbo, Morales, Pujols, Hunter, Vernon wells, Bobby abreu… All really lined up for three positions. Four if you count the DH. But they have bourjous and trout as well. Only one of those guys can play center, because he can’t play right or left. And you may just want to keep one and mix in wells and hunter.

They’ll need to make a move and the price will have to come down until they meet demand.

You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!

by Bsullivan on Dec 17, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Or they could move Abreu or Hunter

who aren’t long-term plan guys anyway. They would need to eat some salary on that probably, but not that much I would guess. Hunter would need to waive his no-trade clause, which is unlikely since the Angels are probably as likely a pick as anyone to win the Series next year. Assuming that Angels ate $4-5million, he would be similar to David DeJesus.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

The downside

is that they will not have anywhere near the options for first base next year. They may end up getting stuck with yet another year of LaRoche, which is not a situation I relish. Next year they will have good options for CF, so: 1B this offseason, CF next.

Rob

--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds

by RobBobS on Dec 18, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

In the words of legendary wrassler Dusty Rhodes,

it’s time to stop BSinnnn’ the peeeeeople. If you say you’re going to try for a #3 starter (which I’m still not convinced we actually needed to do), you don’t just bid on one and then say you’re just going to stick with what you’ve got. If you say you need a CF/leadoff hitter, make an attempt to land one. Hopefully something is in the works, but you never know. Come on, at least improve the bench.

by mstomper on Dec 17, 2011 8:50 PM EST reply actions  

Give it a month...

I’d pass judgement until at least Cespedes comes off the board. The plan was (and I’m sure still is) to increase payroll gradually over the next few years—— the new CBA only increased the incentives to do this. With that in mind, I’m sure there are a number of trades on the table and free agents being targeted. Aoki should not be a starter—— someone who can’t put together a .400 SLG in Japan is not someone you want in your lineup every day.

I’m still intrigued by the lack of rumors on Prince Fielder. Remember he is represented by Boras, who has a ‘good’ relationship with Rizzo. I know 1B isn’t a pressing need at the moment, but if the price falls down to the 7 year/160 range….

by John Yarchoan on Dec 17, 2011 8:56 PM EST reply actions  

I wouldn't be shocked to see us end up with Fielder.

I thought it was a little strange when LaRoche was declared “100 percent” in November. Was that a ploy to make him worth more than a bag of balls? I’d really like to see one new member of the starting lineup (besides Harper). If Harper is ready to hit .280 and hit 25 home runs he should be in the lineup, but we have no idea if he’s there yet. If Fielder can be signed for 6 or 7 years, maybe we should jump at the opportunity.

by mstomper on Dec 17, 2011 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm all on board with signing Fielder; I just don't think Rizzo and/or the Lerners are

I’m actually pretty mad about not bidding on Aoki AT ALL. A $2.5 million winning bid? When I heard that I was sure it was the Nationals – it made sense on so many levels.

I think I’m going to have to drop out for a bit to cool off. I really, really don’t want to see Bernadina in CF. Werth in CF pretty much forces Harper into the lineup ready or not. Argh.

by d_c_guy on Dec 17, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I had actually the opposite reaction

My gut reaction was that if the bid was only $2.5 million, then clearly the Nationals didn’t think that he was a real answer at CF, but I wish that the Nationals had won.

by chubias on Dec 17, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

The lineup

You have to think that the lineup will be stronger in 2012 for a handful of reasons:

1) Zimm only played in 101 games, and still didn’t look like he was fully healthy for a number of them
2) We can look forward to a full season of Morse playing every day
3) Though Werth is probably going to start hitting his decline soon, he should be better than he was early last season
4) Espinosa and Ramos now have full seasons under their belt

It still doesn’t excuse the fact that they totally lack a leadoff man and a true CF. Fielder would be a great addition if the price and length of a deal becomes more realistic. What irritates me about the Aoki thing is that the posting fee was so ridiculously cheap that it would appear that they were asleep at the wheel in terms of going after him. He has the range to cover CF (something I don’t really trust Cespedes to have), though most reports say he has a noodle arm. His average-hitting ability and his superior (for NPB, at least) plate discipline profile him perfectly as a leadoff man. These are the two areas that Rizzo has been preaching are the biggest needs all offseason (and during 2011). It just seems like someone was asleep at the wheel.

by bluelineswinger on Dec 17, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Who's still available to play RF if Werth moves to center?

Not that it’s certain Rizzo will go after them anyway. I’d love to know if they really intend to make a serious run at anyone, but I suppose I’ll need to wait like everyone else.

by mstomper on Dec 17, 2011 9:22 PM EST reply actions  

Jason Kubel and Carlos Beltran?

Not really options I want to see for the Nationals.

by chubias on Dec 17, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

To be honest, I'd take either of them on a one year deal

Of course, both will be pursuing multi-year deals. Beltran is easily the more preferable option of the two, despite his recent injury history. His injury history means he definitely isn’t a CF anymore, which means Werth would have to play CF. Still, I’d certainly trust his glove in RF and he’s more than capable of repeating his .300/.385/.525 line from last season. Kubel, coming off of an injury-prone .273/.332/.434 season, may be more likely to sign a one year deal to prove that he can stay healthy and bring the power back to his 2009 level.

A one year deal makes sense because the Nats should be looking for a stopgap solution to give Harper just a little more time in the minors. With the changes to the CBA, Kubel will net the Twins a draft pick but won’t cost the team that signs him a pick. I’m not sure about Beltran, but I’m fairly certain that he’s a Modified A at best (wouldn’t cost the Nats a pick, but the Giants would get compensation with a created pick).

Of course, the Nats haven’t been mentioned as a team that’s in on either player. Kubel’s market doesn’t seem to have developed much at all, but Beltran certainly has his fair share of suitors. Beltran just had a heck of a contract year after injury troubles had sapped his production for a few years, so I assume he’s going to cash in.

by bluelineswinger on Dec 17, 2011 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Good call.... Forgot about that

For me, it all comes down to years. If he’d sign a one (or even two) year deal, there’s a ton of potential value. 4.7 WAR player last year. 2010 was a complete loss for him, but even missing half of the 2009 season he was a 3.0 WAR player. Yeah… He’s on the downside, but if Beltran can stay healthy enough to play in 120 games, he’s a 3.0 WAR guy in each of the next two years. Lifetime .283/.361/.496 hitter with a glove that’s more than strong enough in a corner outfield spot.

What scares me about Beltran is…. Well….

- Hammer just signed with the Twins for 3/$21 – He and Beltran are the same age, both have had quite a few injury problems in recent years

- Cuddyer just signed with the Rockies for 3/$31.5 – He’s also the same age as Beltran. There’s less of an injury history than there is with Beltran.

Of course, neither of those players are really in Beltran’s class. Cuddyer set a career best this season with 3.1 WAR… It’s the second time in his career that he’s been worth 3 WAR. Hammer’s career best WAR season(s) were at 3.0 exactly as well, in 2008 and 2010.

As I mentioned above, Beltran had 3.0 WAR in 2009….. when he played in 81 games. He was worth 4.7 WAR this past season. In fact, in 12 big league seasons, Beltran has had exactly 3 seasons in which he was worth less than 3.0 WAR (or Cuddyer and Willingham, who each just signed 3 year deals worth $10 and $7 million per season) career best seasons.

If Beltran were to sign a one or two year deal for less than $12 million per season or so, he’s probably going to be a huge bargain for whoever signs him.

by bluelineswinger on Dec 17, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Here is what is left out there

Prince Fielder, Johnny Damon, Raul Ibanez, Reed Johnson, Luke Scott, Coco Crisp, Cody Ross, Carlos Beltran, J.D. Drew, and Jason Kubel

MOAR SEVERINO!

by jeff550 on Dec 17, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

not overly prepossessing for OF

Damon, Yertl, and (to some degree) Drew are in steep decline. Johnson is injury prone and meh offensively. Scott is injured, a bad OF, and bat-s*** crazy. Ross and Crisp are possibilities, but Ross really has just the 2010 playoffs as a positive on his recent resume, and I’m not particularly impressed by Crisp. Beltran and Kubel both probably want multi-year contracts.

Besides, do you really want to see an OF of Werth flanked by Morse and Damon/Ibanez/Scott/Kubel? Werth would probably fall apart by July.

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Dec 18, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

That why we needed Aoki, or someone

becuase Harper aint any better that these guys on the defensive side of the ball, and could very well be worse on the offensive side.

MOAR SEVERINO!

by jeff550 on Dec 18, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

He’s better offensively right now, and give him half a season he’ll be better defensively.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Dec 19, 2011 1:17 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Harper.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Dec 18, 2011 12:10 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

I'd just as soon see Cody Ross.

He had an off year last year, but if he could hit 20-25 home runs again he could be a bargain. I’d be fine with Crisp as a stopgap. There are actually useful players out there; I’m just starting to wonder if we’ll end up with any of them. It’s like fantasy baseball players who are afraid of overpaying for anyone and end up with money on the table. If we’re going to overpay, it needs to be someone useful.

There seem to be plenty of useful bench players out there; Hinske, Dobbs, Aaron Miles, and Jack Wilson are all available. I’d still like to see Saunders here if he can be signed for a couple of years at 6-7 million per year. Oswalt would probably cost twice that, but I wouldn’t be upset if we signed him either.

by mstomper on Dec 17, 2011 9:36 PM EST reply actions  

He had an off year last year in each of the past two years. Ross’ batting average and OBP were in line with his career averages two years ago…. He slugged 43 points below his career norms as he hit just 14 bombs…. Yeah… Most of them were in September and October, I know. His Avg. and OBP dropped down quite a bit last season as his .405 slugging percentage was 51 points short of his career average.

Ross can (try to) play CF, which could be considered a plus. He never really handled the position well, though. He had a really good 2008 seasons in terms of UZR/150 as a CF, but all that’s done in terms of his UZR/150 for his career in CF is make him a touch below league average. He’s a corner guy if you believe his bat can play there. 2008 was the last time his bat really looked like it deserved to cover a corner outfield spot.

In truth, I’d rather see Bernadina patrol CF than sign Cody Ross. I realize I may be in the minority there, but that’s my opinion.

by bluelineswinger on Dec 17, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions  

But I like the Crisp mention

He could at least play CF and be a leadoff type. Probably won’t cost an arm and a leg either, and a short-term deal wouldn’t be out of the question.

by bluelineswinger on Dec 17, 2011 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Crisp is probably my first choice, which speaks to the dearth of outfield talent.

We need outfielders unless we expect Bernadina to start or Harper to be up for good. Chances are neither of those things will happen. I still would like to have Ankiel back as a 4th outfielder. LaRoche isn’t an all-star, but the way some people on the boards talk about him you’d think he was below the Mendoza line for his career.

by mstomper on Dec 17, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

We never got to see good Laroche last year

He’s always been as dramatic a second-half player as there is in the league. Lifetime triple-slash:

April: .207/.302/.385
May: .246/.327/.424
June: .263/.328/.451
July: .289/.343/.527
August: .314/.382/.571
September: .291/.345/.524

He has no fewer than 536 at bats in any of those particular months, which means there’s at least a decent sample size there. Laroche’s season ended in May this past season. Yes…. He was worse than his (admittedly awful) career averages in those months, but he’s always been a slow starter who catches fire around the middle of June.

by bluelineswinger on Dec 17, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

So, He'll actually be good

Right after we trade him to make room for Harper (with Morse going to first)

by d_c_guy on Dec 17, 2011 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Sigh.

He HAS had some seasons where he improved late, but he has also had seasons where he didn’t. People look at the averaged split though and assume that it is something that he just naturally does every year, and it’s just not true.

Rob

--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds

by RobBobS on Dec 18, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Crisp is a safe short tem solution

Crisp is a safe bet to fill the hole for next year. He is a little better than Rick Ankiel. They give up defense for need offense with Crisp. Ankiel is still a free agent and not a given to be back. However, do both of them are 31, so it would not be a good idea to sign more than a 1 year contract. Even with Harper come soon they need more outfield help long term. Michael Morse should be going back to 1st Base. Roger Bernadina is starting to look like he will only be a 4th outfielder.

by HG_VA on Dec 18, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

ICYMI...

(In case you missed it):

“Japanese officials: Winning bid for Darvish to set posting record”

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/baseball/mlb/12/17/yu.darvish/index.html#ixzz1gqpJV99F

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Dec 17, 2011 9:53 PM EST reply actions  

Very very very disappointing about Aoki

It now seems unlikely Rizzo will do much of anything. If he isn’t willing to bid 2.5 million on a perfectly good potential solution to our biggest problem I can’t see him going big or trading much for someone. It seems he is overconfident in his team. It’s getting clearer day after day that 2012 will not be a competitive year – it’ll be another year of waiting for something better. And it is not at all necessary.

by apostle61 on Dec 17, 2011 9:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

I'm also very disappointed.

I’m hoping that Rizzo is just working on something else big.

by chubias on Dec 17, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I can go four "verys" on disappointed

This was a very solid option to help the team for a reasonable price. To pass on Aoki makes all the talk about filling needs this winter very suspect. What are they saving money for? Especially this amount.

by JamesFan on Dec 18, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

After watching a Q&A with Rizzo...

…my dread has been reinforced. Rizzo is convinced we have the talent in house to compete so he will absolutely play it conservatively in making deals. Don’t expect him to sign Cespedes or Fielder or Oswalt. He’ll make some small deals but don’t expect more than that. I wish we hadn’t won 80 games last year. It’s created too much optimism in the front office. They think just having Stras and Zimm pitching the whole year will account for several more wins. And they are convinced Desmond, Espinosa, Ramos, Werth will all have better years offensively. This year will be all about letting the young players develop. It’ll be a team of potential but with significant weaknesses and no depth in experience. Another year of AAAA ball.

by apostle61 on Dec 18, 2011 1:06 AM EST reply actions  

Gm's love to posture like this...

If Rizzo can convince (even a little) his potential trade partners/free agents that he could stay put and be OK, it helps as a negotiating tool. I wouldn’t read into this too much.

by John Yarchoan on Dec 18, 2011 1:16 AM EST up reply actions  

This doesn't seem like posturing

His tone seemed completely resigned to standing pat. Besides, he’d be a fool to trade away too much talent when he could have improved through free agency.

by apostle61 on Dec 18, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Standing Pat is not an Upgrade for the Nats

The Nats are 10 games shy of competing for the playoffs with what they had last year. How do you create a 10 game improvement if you do nothing and your competition improves? If the requirement, as stated, has been to find a leadoff, on-base hitter who can play defense, how could the Nats take a pass on Aoki who gives every indication of having those skills? Why would the Nats be willing to trade talented young players for outfielders who do not meet the requirement instead of bidding on Aoki? Maybe there is a plan here. I just do not see it. Rizzo has some serious explaining to do on this one if the Nats did not submit a bid.

by JamesFan on Dec 18, 2011 9:10 AM EST reply actions  

I agree - not an upgrade

Not when your opponents are improving. I agree that if all our players stay healthy for a full season AND improve then we will win more games but how often does that happen? That seems more like wishful thinking then a plan.

by apostle61 on Dec 18, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

New thread - is Zim being strung along on an extension?

Seems like Rizzo is really dragging his ass about Zimmerman. Is he delaying in order to see what he has in Rendon in order to use Zimmerman in a trade in maybe a year or so?

by apostle61 on Dec 18, 2011 10:04 AM EST reply actions  

I think both sides are reluctant to do something after his injury year

Zim would like to have some time to drive up his value with a strong start and the FO would like to have some more security in his health.

Waiting to bang my drum in parades for the Nats and Caps.

by souldrummer on Dec 18, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

But his injury was not of the career threatening type.

It was his stomach. Why would that give the FO pause? Actually, given Zim’s “down” year statistically I would think that Rizzo would act more aggressively to get a deal done before Zim rebounds and puts up big numbers. I could see reluctance on Zim’s part but it seems that Rizzo is the one putting it off. I find that concerning.

by apostle61 on Dec 18, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Abdomen more so than just stomach

and he already changed the way he threw because of it. It doesn’t have to threaten his career to bump down his leverage. Even a nagging little injury like this could cause enough concern

Whats the frequency, Kenneth?

by ZimforPrez on Dec 18, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

The injury wasn't career-threatening in terms of being career-ENDING.

However, it is career-threatening in terms of getting Zim one season closer to being regarded as “fragile.” How much do you want to pay a player who is a high risk to miss 40+ games? Okay, if you’re the Marlins then quite a bit, but still…

Mon pauvre vieux, les empires s'écroulent, les républiques s'effondrent et les imbéciles demeurent.

by Doghouse on Dec 18, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh snaps, Jose, Jose Jose Jose...

Jose! Jose! [spit!]™

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Dec 18, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok. Abdomen.

Still, not career threatening, as I understand it. And it actually improved his throwing. My point is that you would think Rizzo would be chomping at the bit to get a deal done while Zim’s value is lower than normal. So why isn’t he? I hate to think it but I believe he might be holding onto his option of trading him. And I don’t like that.

by apostle61 on Dec 18, 2011 12:29 PM EST reply actions  

I'm starting to get real miffed about the offseason

To me, and what seems to be many others here, I’m more afraid of WHY the Nats aren’t spending, even wisely, on pieces that are needed.

In my opinion the rotation as it stands right now is solid, even with watching John Lannan who makes my eyes bleed. Would this rotation have been better by adding a vet like Buehrle? Yes. Would it have been better by taking a chance on Darvish? Tougher to answer but the short answer is probably.

The Aoki thing makes no sense. If Rizzo wanted to fill a hole with a CF, leadoff, defense plus guy it was sitting out there waiting. Unproven? Most definitely but he was most likely the cheapest solution out there to fill the BIGGEST GLARING NEED ON THE TEAM.

This to mean could mean that unless the Nats are planning something big and for them out of the water, i.e. Fielder (who has a dwindling market if the Cubs trade Garza to SDP and get Anthony Rizzo in return), or the willingness to spend was for Jayson Werth and that is it. If the willingness to spend is gone, this team will end up being the next Pirates or Royals. They have to have AMAZING cheap talent all come together at the right time in order to compete and win, and if they don’t do it when the stars align, then kiss the plan goodbye until it happens again. If they don’t even put inklings out that they intend to resign Zimm, then my hope for the future tends to get bleaker by the minute.

Name a number between three and five.
.............
.............
Threeve.

by Mattionals on Dec 18, 2011 12:29 PM EST reply actions  

They won't stand pat ....

When we (and baseball) least expect it … bam.

My guess is still Fielder and a power pitcher left-hander: Danks, Price, Gio Gonzalez.

With Purke still ostensibly getting past this past year’s arm trouble and
Solis continuing to experience soreness in his … and Robbie Ray not
advancing like AJ Cole … and McGreary still down in low A … and Smoker
now converted to relief … there’s just soft-tosser Rosenbaum.

Finally there is NO HOLE in CF. NO HOLE as LONG as Johnson insists on finishing
Harper’s development in the majors. NO HOLE because Werth has to play somewhere
and its not in right field or left if you have Morse and Harper there? Under those
circumstances YOU DON’T WASTE MONEY OR PROSPECTS on A CF?

I’ve been telling all of you to listen to Johnson not Rizzo. Even with Riggleman the general design of the team were along Riggleman’s lines. Werth especially fits that.

Johnson doesn’t WANT A CF. He wants Harper and more left-handed power hitters. He wants more offensive power threats on the bench AND YES he has expressed a very strong desire for left-handed power pitchers in his rotation (thus Detwiler).

by plebescite on Dec 18, 2011 12:34 PM EST reply actions  

I am listening to DJ, that's what's worrying me.

DJ likes Werth in CF. But Werth isn’t a natural CFer and he is declining. And even with Harper in right you have a glaring hole in left after Morse switches there midseason (or earlier if Laroche isn’t healthy.) It would be better to move Werth to left and sign a real CFer. Look, I love our pitching staff and wouldn’t trade Peacock, Milone or Detwiler. Keep the pitchers. But we are offensively challenged. How is Rizzo fixing that? He let Nix go. A POWER HITTING LEFTY! He’s fumbling away opportunities and I can’t figure it out.

Seems the only chance now to add some pop is to sign Fielder.,Then bench LaRoche, keep Morse in left and put Harper in right. I’d be happy with Werth in center under those circumstances.

by apostle61 on Dec 18, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Johnson wants left-handed bats and power bats ...

LaRoche isn’t going anywhere if he proves he truly has recovered. Rizzo won’t trade him before the trade deadline. Not if Johnson nixes it and HE WILL under those circumstances.

Morse is in left-field for 2012.

by plebescite on Dec 18, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

They have a natural CF for the bench and he bats left ...

And his name is Corey Brown … they have another great fielder and left-handed hitter in Curran.

Many evaluators do not believe that Hood, Perez, and Goodwin can play CF …. so …

by plebescite on Dec 18, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Corey Brown, look at his numbers in AAA, thoes numbers would be bad in the MLB

much less AAA. Corey Brown is not a major league option for 2012, and that is why he was DFA
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=brown-002cor

Chris Curran is an OG and nothing more. Hood cant play CF
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=curran001chr

Our CF options for the future are Eury Perez, Brian Goodwin, and Michael Taylor. None of them have played above a ball

MOAR SEVERINO!

by jeff550 on Dec 18, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Corey Brown is currently off the 40-man roster

and Curran great – in what league? He’s pinballed around the minor-league system over the last two years, never settling into a lineup or roster. He’s just another OG at this time. Hood shouldn’t EVER play CF; Perez can play the position defensively, but rarely drives a ball out of the infield, and Goodwin is completely untested at the pro level.

Peric, You can toss out all the names you want from the minor-league system, but none of them pass the ‘look & sniff’ test at this point; Sorry.

"Things are going great, and they're only gettin' better..." Timbuk3

by BinM on Dec 18, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

He really kills at AA

And had five good weeks at the end of the season in AAA. That’s it. I’ve had hopes for Corey Brown and they’re not completely gone – but it would be folly for a team to count on him as the answer at the big league level.

by d_c_guy on Dec 18, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Which evaluators do not believe that Hood, Perez, and Goodwin can play CF?

I agree they aren’t MLB options yet. But I have yet to hear that they can’t play CF, perhaps you could link to an article?

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

He didn't let Nix go ...

How is Rizzo fixing that? He let Nix go

They offered him the same deal … he chose the Phillies.
Not much you can do about that.

by plebescite on Dec 18, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Nix cant PH

and that is why we did not keep him. to be a bench player you have to be able to PH, Nix couldnt so he was very valuble to the team

MOAR SEVERINO!

by jeff550 on Dec 18, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Harper?

To bring up Harper, who is not ready, to open the season and cost the team a year of control just to appease a one-year manager would be stupid beyond belief.

It’s not DJ’s reputation on the line if the Nats tank in 2012. He will continue to draw a check for two more years, and Rizzo will be left holding responsibliity for not creating a team that could easily be competitive in 2012 if they did the three things they declared: Experienced pitcher, on-base, leadoff centerfielder, improved bench. Lots of capable bench guys are off the table, we underbid on pitching and we passed on the best option for cf on the market. I don’t get it.

by JamesFan on Dec 18, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you people actually believe???

So, He’ll actually be good
Right after we trade him to make room for Harper (with Morse going to first)

That Johnson is going to allow himself to be left with ONE LEFT HANDED power bat in his lineup? And a rookie too boot? Do you actually believe Harper is going to be enough for Johnson?

Its why LaRoche has to be replaced now if Rizzo is going to replace him. Because Johnson is going to want him at first base the entire year if he proves he has recovered. Sure Marerro was insurance but another non-power right handed bat at first?

That won’t work. Its why I have to think Fielder and more huge $$$$ for Boras is in the offing.

by plebescite on Dec 18, 2011 12:49 PM EST reply actions  

Then they'll go with LaRoche ... for the whole year.

But I suspect Boras wants to place Fielder with the Nats.

The contract is a tough nut they will have to crack … the length more than the $$$.Then, there’s the problem of LaRoche … he isn’t going to be easy to trade.

by plebescite on Dec 18, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Acquiring Fielder at this point...

automatically renders both LaRoche ($9M due), and Marrero (controlled through 2017) as extra pieces with no trade value, since both are coming off injuries. It also cuts into the value on both Morse (2 years control remaining), and Moore (7 years remaining), as they would be at least partally blocked by the presence of Fielder at 1B.

Harper will eventually push Morse out of LF – probably this year, certainly next year at the latest. If Fielder is occupying 1B, Morse becomes yet another spare piece with lowered trade value because there’s no place for him in the starting 9. I can’t say that the Nationals’ won’t sign Fielder, but doing so would restrict them both financially & physically (on the field) for the next 8-10 years.

"Things are going great, and they're only gettin' better..." Timbuk3

by BinM on Dec 18, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Have to disagree with you here

LaRoche is only owed 8 million this year and 2013 is an option year that was never likely to be picked up. Marrero even healthy shows very little power, so his trade value would probably never be very high unless teams want a bench bat who can play shaky D but can hit singles off the bench. Morse has shown that he can play the OF, and Harper is a RF, not going to LF so Morse isn’t pushed out until we have a CF come up through the system that would move Werth to LF which is where he will end up as he ages anyway.

Point being here, signing Fielder will not cripple the team financially and physically as you say. What signing Fielder will do will extend this team into playoff contention due to the consistent offense and high OBP that Fielder brings to the table. He is the biggest thing that the Nationals can do to improve an anemic offense from last year. I think our pitching will take care of itself and I have some hope that we can make a leadoff hitter out of Desmond or Lombardozzi, and for one I’d rather have a bunch of power hitters from 3-6 then trying to shoe Desmond or Espinosa in there when they play positions where D is first.

Name a number between three and five.
.............
.............
Threeve.

by Mattionals on Dec 18, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree to disagree on this one on a couple of levels...

1) Signing Fielder locks 1B for 8-10 years, blocking / de-valueing anyone currently in the system (LaRoche / Marrero / Moore / Morse & deeper), until he breaks down physically (year 4-8). His projected salary demand ($25M/yr), could also constrict the money available to extend / re-sign players like RZim / Strasburg / JZimm / Morse / Ramos / Storen / Clippard / etc.
2) Fielder, in order to be productive & maximize value, needs people on base in front of him in the lineup. The Nationals currently have little to offer as proven in that regard (Desmond .298OBP, Werth .330OBP, RZim .355OBP, Lombardozzi .360OBP [AA-AAA], .219OBP [MLB], Espinosa .323OPB.

His current salary demands could limit the room for additions at positions of immediate need (CF), and hinder the team going forward, unless the Lerners want to risk the ‘Luxury tax’ penalty in 2014-2018.

"Things are going great, and they're only gettin' better..." Timbuk3

by BinM on Dec 18, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that is it is unlikely that Fielder will get his 8-year $200 million dollar contract

And anyone that pays that contract will be making a mistake.

Furthermore, I don’t know that your assertion regarding the devaluation is correct. There are plenty of teams that need cost-controlled slugging power such as Tampa Bay.

I do think that you accurately assess the risk of Fielder being ability to extend/re-sign /pay arbitration salaries to RZim / Strasburg / JZimm / Morse / Ramos / Storen / Clippard / etc. However, we have no idea what the planned salary level for the Nationals is going to be other than it will likely be more than they are spending now. If it is $90-$100 million (about top 50-45%), then we likely can’t afford Fielder and those previously mentioned, and we would likely be a non-contender for several years around 2016-2020. If however, we have a payroll of $110-120 million (top 20-25%), then we can accommodate Fielder much easier.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm wid BinM

Rizzo has his eye on Sept 2012, into 2013, and beyond. As well he might. Morse will move to 1B and the outfield will consist of Harper in left, Werth in right, and a young fella named Eury Perez in center. Just you wait, that kid’s a comer.

And one more thing about Fielder: mighty lefty that he is, he would absolutely poison our clubhouse. Spend the money on Zimm. Make him a Nat for life, and do it in 2012.

"On my tombstone just write, 'The sorest loser that ever lived.'" - Earl Weaver

by Whupass on Dec 18, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

How would Fielder poison the clubhouse?

From what I hear he is a stand up guy, spends time with his son and everything. He doesn’t seem like Dukes, Morgan, any of those. He even seems more fan and team friendly than Werth who doesn’t have the best personal record either.

Name a number between three and five.
.............
.............
Threeve.

by Mattionals on Dec 18, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, Manny Parra and Guillermo Mota might not be big fans.

They are the pitchers that Prince Fielder tried to get in off-field altercations with. Plus, he also said that he was walking from the Brewers in the middle of a play-off run.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Fielder is a good clubhouse guy from all accounts

I have no idea where this particular characterization comes from.

Rob

--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds

by RobBobS on Dec 18, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

OK.

But of course some folks would refer to this as simply being “a fiery competitor”.

Rob

--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds

by RobBobS on Dec 18, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Other folks would call it acting like a big baby - on television, no less

Seeing is believing, and the vids are widely available.

Jayson Werth is a fiery competitor. Kirk Giibson – guys like that, leaders who’ll do anything to win, but they don’t make vulgar asses outa’ themselves, in public, for all the world to see. It’s well known that you like Fielder, Rob, and no question he he’s a top power-hitter the likes of which we sorely need – but he’s also an undisciplined, 300 lb Nyjer Morgan, and that would hurt us.

"On my tombstone just write, 'The sorest loser that ever lived.'" - Earl Weaver

by Whupass on Dec 18, 2011 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Over dramatization?

Ye’ don’t say. Here, check this vid: http://youtu.be/FGJ1kzDerqw

"On my tombstone just write, 'The sorest loser that ever lived.'" - Earl Weaver

by Whupass on Dec 18, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Scandalous...

Was that a Monday Night Raw skit?

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Dec 18, 2011 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Wut, I screwed up the link?

…imagine that.

"On my tombstone just write, 'The sorest loser that ever lived.'" - Earl Weaver

by Whupass on Dec 18, 2011 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

hey, that wrasslin' behind-the-scenes stuff is real!!!

"...I don't want to go watch American League baseball." Lance Berkman......LBIMH...

by cat daddy3000 on Dec 18, 2011 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Competitive

The Nats do not need to spend $200m to be competitive next year and into the future. Sure Fielder would be a great addition, but at what cost to the future. To get him will seriously limit this team for years to come.

by JamesFan on Dec 18, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Read above please

Name a number between three and five.
.............
.............
Threeve.

by Mattionals on Dec 18, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd hate to lose Fielder because we're hung up on LaRoche.

Stick LaRoche on the bench. He might be a good pinch hitter and that solves a bench problem.

by apostle61 on Dec 18, 2011 1:07 PM EST reply actions  

But are the Lerner's willing to spend?

AND bite the bullet of potentially having LaRoche eat up an 8 million dollar salary sitting on the bench? Considering the options out there I would try to trade him to the Cubs if they are serious about trading Garza to SDP involving bringing Anthony Rizzo to Chicago. Rizzo doesn’t look to be ready for the bigs and LaRoche would be a one year stop gap for them to aid in Rizzo’s development.

Ideally with what is stil still on the table, a 25 man roster for OD would consist of the following;

SP – Strasburg, Zimmerman, Lannan, Wang, Detwiler

RP – Burnett, H-Rod, Mattheus, Clippard, Storen, Gorzelanny, Peacock/Milone

C – Ramos
1B – Fielder
2B – Espinosa
SS – Desmond
3B – Zimmerman
LF – Morse
CF – Werth
RF – Harper

C Bench – Flores
OF Bench – Ankiel, Bernadina, Reed Johnson
IF Bench – Lombardozzi, Jack Wilson

Name a number between three and five.
.............
.............
Threeve.

by Mattionals on Dec 18, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a pretty darn good looking roster

I’d like a little more weight on the bench but with that stariting 8 we would win a lot of games. But I don’t think LaRoche can be traded so, he becomes an expensive bench option for a year. Big deal.

by apostle61 on Dec 18, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

If we have the money to keep LaRoche

I’d send Lombo down to AAA to give him more reps at leadoff and run LaRoche on the bench. Just the addition of Reed Johnson would make the team better, and Ankiel provides the late inning defense.

I’d expect that a trade may be able to be worked out for the Cubs who are showing that they aren’t going to contend next season. LaRoche fills a gap if they intend to go with Rizzo as their 1B of the future. I think Rizzo makes more sense then Fielder to the cubbies honestly.

Name a number between three and five.
.............
.............
Threeve.

by Mattionals on Dec 18, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

The Padres would need more than Rizzo for Garza though

and the Padres probably won’t contend this year anyway. I suppose a 3 team trade could be an option, but given how thin the Cubs system is, I don’t see why they would be fixated on Rizzo.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Obviously it won't be a straight swap

The cubs need to restock the system and keep the big splashes to a minimum. The whole Theo Epstein thing is to make moves to build a contender in a few years rather than try and win now, which hasn’t worked for the south siders, well, ever.

Rizzo is definitely part of a deal to send Garza to SDP, and SDP now has position players in spots to try for contention now or very soon within a year or so. Garza is a better suited to win now over Latos, especially considering the haul that SDP got in return.

Name a number between three and five.
.............
.............
Threeve.

by Mattionals on Dec 18, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree if there was a deal to send Garza to SDP it would involve Rizzo

but I don’t know that SDP has a great deal of prospects to offer the Cubs for Garza. I’m guessing they would need at the very least 3 top prospects, and something else.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

No, that's a bunch of bombers without a trigger

Look at the difference between OBP & SLG. Try & build a reasonable lineup out of the current team + Fielder. Here’s the best I came up with…
1) Lombardozzi (2B): .309BA/.360OBP/.430SLG, 30SB, 2E [AA/AAA].
2) Werth (CF): .232BA/.330OBP/.389SLG, 19SB; 8E.
3) RZim (3B): .289/.355/.443; 12E.
4) Fielder (1B): .299/.415/.566; 15E.
5) Morse (LF): .303/.360/.550; 7E.
6) Harper (RF): .297/.392/.501; 8E [A/AA].
7) Espinosa (SS): .236/.323/.414; 14E.
8) Ramos (CA): .267/.334/.445; 5E.

Bench- Desmond (SS): .253BA/.298OBP/.358SLG, 25SP; 23E.
Bench- Bernadina (OF): .243/.301/.362, 17SB; 1E.
Bench- Flores (CA): .209/.253/.314; 5E.
Bench- ??
Bench- ??

"Things are going great, and they're only gettin' better..." Timbuk3

by BinM on Dec 18, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

TRUST IN RIZZO!

Desi is the leadoff guy! Catalyst!

Ok, so I definitely agree with you that it’s a bunch of sluggers without a trigger UNLESS lombo is the real deal. The lineup you have put out there is definitely one that the team would go with if they sign Fielder and both Lombo and Harper are ready.

Name a number between three and five.
.............
.............
Threeve.

by Mattionals on Dec 18, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Hope?

I dunno. The D is there, the walks are there, it just remains to be seen if he can hit a lick so I wouldn’t count him out yet

Whats the frequency, Kenneth?

by ZimforPrez on Dec 18, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, he had a rough call-up

but after going 0 for 15, he was 6 for 16. And his minor league numbers strongly seem to indicate that he can hack it.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

But he has significantly less range than either of the current mif’s so he would have to be much better at the plate than Desmond to get a spot, I don’t see it.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Dec 19, 2011 1:23 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Yes, our payroll is low next year, but it is expected to grow for the next several years without any relief really.

We could afford Fielder for 2012 and 2013, but in 2014?

Werth’s contract adds +10 million to 2011 value
Zimmerman is a free agent unless a contract extension is reached.
Morse is a free agent.
Zimmermann is in arb 3.
Clippard is in arb 3.
Storen, Ramos, Strasburg, Espinosa, are either arb 1 or 2 depending on Super 2 status.

Even with the little coming off the books (Gorz, Lannan, Maya, Burnett) you are looking at adding $25+ million more to the payroll to keep everyone. Obviously, we will let some go, Morse will be 33 or 34. Add in Fielder’s $20+ on the year and you get to $120+million, pretty easy. And it only gets worse from there.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

But no one knows what the Lerners are willing to spend

If we are already at the ceiling and the Lerners really are that cheap, then kiss all of the young talent goodbye and forget trying to contend. We are close but really need one or two extra pieces to go for a WS, and everyone knows that.

If the rumors of the Lerners forcefully wanting a WS winning and perennial contending team are true then fans could see them being alright sitting on salary sitting in the 125-150 Mil range, putting us right up against some top contending teams with high salary contracts. I just do’t make that call saying that the nats don’t sign Fielder because of money constraints concerning other players just yet. New ground with owners who pull in close to the top in revenue each year and spending more could also mean more profits if the team continues to win.

Name a number between three and five.
.............
.............
Threeve.

by Mattionals on Dec 18, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

My response was to the comment- “Our payroll is at $80 million for next year. We can afford Fielder” which does not reflect that our payroll is artificially low because so many stars are in pre-arbitration years.

Also, I think it is unlikely that we would spend $150 million, as that would make us the 4th highest paid team in 2011. Given our bad TV contract, and the lack of a National fan base, or a particularly fervent hometown fan base, I think it is unlikely that the Nationals will spend that much. That being said we have a reasonably affluent market, even if it is relatively small, so I could see the Nationals spending significantly more. Adjusting for inflation may take the payroll higher.

I could be wrong though, perhaps we will spend like the Phillies.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

It will definitely take time

I am from the Philly area so I saw this team go from dumpster divers to legitimate contenders and honestly it isn’t hard to see how they did it. Yes they have had followers for years in the past and opening a new ball park and winning games has helped them move forward, but if really didn’t start until they filled key rolls with larger contracts. This team now sells out EVERY home game, and before it was much like what we have now with the Phils fans coming down to Nats park. Mets fans invaded the Vet and now you can’t find a single Met hat around CBP. Follow that logic as you said and we could be up in payroll like the Phils have.

BTW, I expect the hard ceiling for the Nats is somewhere in the 120-130 range, which is perennial contender range in my book. That would definitely be enough to wrap up Fielder, and if the large market teams are really all but out on the Prince, then there is a better chance that he signs a shorter deal.

Name a number between three and five.
.............
.............
Threeve.

by Mattionals on Dec 18, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the Nationals could probably sign Fielder, and keep the core for $120 million

but that is back of a napkin, gut reaction math. So, I wouldn’t be surprised if I was wrong. It would be an interesting fanpost, to try to project the salaries of Ramos, Espinosa, Zimmerman, Zimmermann, Storen, Clippard, Strasburg, and Harper through 2017 (when Werth’s contract ends).

I don’t think it is hard to imagine that these players might cost $20 million more in 2015. Strasburg made $2.5 million in 2011, assuming he’s in arb 2 due to his injury, he could still cost $14 million like Tim Lincecum. Assumming $2 million more each for Espinosa, Ramos in arb. 1 years. Add 5 million Ryan Zimmerman (16 million as a FA). Jordan Zimmermann could also be a significant cost.

I don’t think it is unreasonable that some of these players might be dealt for prospects depending on how our farm system shapes up, but I doubt we are going to generate a new Zimmermann or Strasburg, which make up the bulk of the cost. However, I think it is one way to keep our overall salary under $120 million.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

The question is: do you want to pay $90 mill for an average team or $120 mill for a champion?

Which is more of a waste of money? But your point is a good one. Rizzo has to project future payroll and go with that but, and it’s a big but, you can cripple yourself with that kind of thinking. Whether we are a winning team or not in three-four years we will be paying more for our guys anyway.

by apostle61 on Dec 18, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

That is a false choice

There were plenty of teams that regularly handed out big contracts that never make the play-offs and plenty that spend far less that regularly do make the playoffs. The better question is would you would prefer to contend one year in ten, or five in ten. No amount of talent or payroll will promise a championship.

I believe the best chance of success is to build a young core (as we have done) and keep them competitive over several seasons. If we sign Fielder, and don’t project a future payroll of $120 million, then we are giving up some seasons that we should be very competitive in 2014-2016. If we can afford to be riding high on those seasons, then come back lower for 2017-2019 as the new core comes through their first 3 seasons at league minimum, then #signFielder.

by chubias on Dec 18, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think it is a false choice

You’re right that a lot of teams sign players to big contracts then never make it to the playoffs or win championships but practically every team that does win a championship has a payroll in excess of $100 million. There is a corelation. If we are very close to being excellent but we need two core players to get us there don’t you go out and get them even if it pushes our payroll to the high side?

by apostle61 on Dec 19, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Depends on the domino affect of the contract

What moves can’t you make because you’re tied to a big money albatross that no one will take off your hands? If you spend big on 2012 but Harper, Peacock, Lombardozzi and Milone aren’t ready, Ramos and Espinosa struggle their second time around the league and the relief pitchers regress, then what moves are you unable to afford when the rookies ARE ready and you have a full season of Strasburg, Zimmermann, Harper, etc? And I’m not talking about the “Lerners R Millionaire$$$ they can afford it” argument – it’s awfully generaous of me to say that someone else should pay millions of dollars for my entertainment.

Timing is everything, and it takes a strong person to hold against the fierce urgency of NOW when NOW may not be the most effective time.

by d_c_guy on Dec 20, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Only the Yankees can afford to put $8M on the bench, imo...

LaRoche needs to play everyday (on this team) simply to justify value, much like Marquis did last year. Otherwise, the Nationals just eat the salary, which the Lerners’ are loathe to do, and would reflect badly on Rizzo should the team move ALR to the bench.

"Things are going great, and they're only gettin' better..." Timbuk3

by BinM on Dec 18, 2011 3:32 PM EST reply actions  

"Pride!!!.... PRIDE before a fall!!!"...

"...I don't want to go watch American League baseball." Lance Berkman......LBIMH...

by cat daddy3000 on Dec 18, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

"Five years ago today...

… the Nationals traded Jose Vidro to the Mariners for Chris Snelling and Emiliano Fruto. Vidro hit .285/.344/.374 in his two years with Seattle, though neither Snelling or Fruto amounted to much with Washington." Thx to MLBtraderumors’ Mike Axisa

by apostle61 on Dec 18, 2011 5:40 PM EST reply actions  

What you don't mention is

Vidro played a total of 30 games in the field over those two years:

2007 – 11 games @ 1B (FP = 1.000, UZR/150= -23.4), 10 games @ 2B (FP = .969, UZR/150= -77.3); fWAR= 1.1
2008 – 9 games @ 1B (FP = .983, UZR/150= -2.0); fWAR = -1.4

There was grumblings at how much his range had diminished before the trade; if anything, his experience in Seattle (who, to be fair, envisioned him primarily as a DH) bore that out.

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Dec 18, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Shame DC fans didn't get to see Vidro when he was a healthy solid line drive machine...

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Dec 18, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

True

I remember (during my 15-year fling as an Orioles fan) when Vidro was a rookie, and completely torched Baltimore (as a DH) during spring training. By the time the Expos became the Nats, his knees were shot, and the LD% was in serious decline.

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Dec 18, 2011 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

"15-year fling as an Orioles fan"?

Wait, I see you now, in black and white, hopelessly wandering the aisles of Memorial Stadium. Dig Ray Milland in “The Lost Weekend.”

I take it you are in recovery now.

"On my tombstone just write, 'The sorest loser that ever lived.'" - Earl Weaver

by Whupass on Dec 18, 2011 8:43 PM EST up reply actions  

But I'm muuuuuch better now.

Yankee fan growing up (Danny Cater, Horace Clarke, Gene Michael, Jerry Kenney) until ‘85 or so, when I got tired of Steinbrenner’s antics. Moved to MD in time for the 0-21 season opening, and stuck with the O’s (except for a brief affair with the ex in the mid-90s) until the Nats move to town.

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Dec 19, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Horace Clark ... wow

Never saw a regular starting second baseman worse at turning a DP. So many GIDPs turned into FC in that infield. shudder

by d_c_guy on Dec 20, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

and Jerry Kenney playing grounders sidesaddle at 3B

Stick had the glove, but no bat. Danny’s best attribute was his ability to turn into Sparky Lyle a couple of years later…

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Dec 23, 2011 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe we're trying too hard to be like the Tampa Bay Rays

Ever since the Rays went to the World Series with a tiny payroll it seems that we decided to use that as our model. Build a solid minor league system, develop prospects and contend year after year. It’s a good model and the Rays have proven that it works but they haven’t won a World Championship yet and may not if they keep trading away prospects or letting them walk. The Rays always seem to be one or two great players away from being dominant. Let’s not make their mistake of not going for broke. They don’t have the money to do it. We do.

by apostle61 on Dec 19, 2011 9:38 AM EST reply actions  

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