Washington Nationals' GM Mike Rizzo Gets Gio Gonzalez For The Nats' Rotation, Now About That Bat?
by Patrick Reddington on Dec 23, 2011 12:51 AM EST
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PrintLess than 24 hours after Washington Post writer Thomas Boswell recommended that the Washington Nationals needed to support their general manager as he tries to add a starter and an outfield bat to the team this Winter in an article entitled, "Nationals have more cash coming in, but refuse to spend it", the Nats made a deal for one of the two parts D.C. GM Mike Rizzo said he believes could turn the Nationals into a contender sooner rather than later.
The Nationals couldn't just stand by while players signed elswhere around the league, the WaPost writer suggested, and if the Nats' owners weren't willing to spend on free agents (in spite of an expected increase in tv revenue) they had to trust the man who helped stockpile pitching depth in the organization to deal it for what he felt the Nationals needed. "In baseball," Mr. Boswell wrote, "no pitfall is more common than becoming infatuated with your own young, unproven, inexpensive players," like Ross Detwiler, Brad Peacock, Tommy Milone, who are nice prospects, the WaPost writer said, but as yet unproven at the major league level.
By the end of the day only one of those three pitchers, 25-year-old '07 1st Rounder Ross Detwiler, remained on the Nationals' roster...
Peacock, the 23-year-old 2011 Nats' Minor League Player of the Year, Milone, 24, who dominated at Triple-A Syracuse and debuted in Washington in September after three strong years in the Nationals' system, Derek Norris, 22, and Washington's top backstop prospect and 19-year-old 2010 4th Round pick A.J. Cole were dealt to Oakland on Thursday in a deal for 26-year-old lefty Gio Gonzalez.
While the Nationals didn't acquire a proven veteran like Roy Oswalt or Mark Buehrle, two examples of veteran pitchers the Washington Post's Mr. Boswell mentioned, they did make a deal for a pitcher in Gonzalez who has two strong seasons on his resume, is arbitration-eligible for the first time this year and under team control for four more seasons. In 2010, Gonzalez was (15-9) with a 3.23 ERA, 3.78 FIP, 92 BB (4.13 BB/9) and 171 K's (7.67 K/9) in 33 starts and 200.2 IP. The lefty followed that up with a 2011 campaign in which he was (16-12) with a 3.12 ERA, 3.64 FIP, 91 BB (4.05 BB/9) and 197 K's (8.78 K/9) in 32 games and 202.0 IP.
"When your GM, in two years, has taken your pitching staff from the 28th-best ERA in baseball (5.00) to seventh-best (3.58)," you let him acquire the starter he tells you he needs to go with Stephen Strasburg and Jordan Zimmermann, and you listen, the WaPost's Mr. Boswell advised, "If your baseball people say: 'We finally have the prospects to trade for a key piece,'" and you say yes and let them make the deal. The Nationals, Mike Rizzo and his front office made the deal they wanted to today.
So what about that outfield bat? Do the Nationals now make the trade for B.J. Upton they've been unable to make for two years? Do they attempt to sign Yoenis Cespedes when he finally becomes available? What about all the rumors that say the Nats are quietly pursuing Prince Fielder, whose list of suitors seems to dwindle every day? Do the Nationals really believe Jayson Werth can play center? Do they really think Bryce Harper's ready for the majors? Do they think a full season of an improved Werth, Ian Desmond, Danny Espinosa, Wilson Ramos and healthy years for Ryan Zimmerman and Adam LaRoche will be enough to turn the Nats into contenders? Does the acqusition of Gonzalez today officially signify that the Nationals' front office believes the Nats can compete this season? The Nats' GM's said the goal is to add a prototypical center fielder, a leadoff guy with a high on base percentage.
As the Washington Post's Mr. Boswell wrote yesterday, "... until you make your first moves, you can’t get to the rest of the puzzle." The Nationals' signings of Mark DeRosa (pending a physical) and Mike Cameron gave them some of the bench options they've wanted to add this winter. They have the pitcher to place atop the rotation with Strasburg and Zimmermann as a strong 1-2-3. Can the Nationals now find the bat they need and see if they can compete? Twenty-four hours ago NatsTown was waiting for Mike Rizzo and the Nats to do something. it's now all about what they are going to do next?
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To me Rizzo is pulling out the stops
If the intention is really clear and we intend to compete this year, then he signs Fielder. LaRoche even with his bottomed out value could be packaged to the Orioles who are in need of first base help, at least for the short term. In my opinion keep Det considering he at his worst could do what Lannan can and move Lannan to a team like the Yankees for a low prospect since Lannan is potentially better than any other option the Bombers have outside of CC.
If you follow Davey at least, Det WILL be in the rotation and if Harper has a good ST, he starts in right. They already seem to have confidence in Desi at leadoff, and I think given that that would be the weak point of the offense, you suck it up and try your best anyway. Werth goes to center and we rely on good up the middle defense, even better pitching ( no more Gaudin experiments or Broderick) and lots of offenza! And this team is playoff caliber.
Name a number between three and five.
.............
.............
Threeve.
Fielder?
I’m still not convinced that Fielder is the answer. An OF of Morse/Werth/Harper is a train wreck defensively…….. DEZ/BERNIE/ESPI in the top two holes is limited because of the K’s……
Fielder solidifies for now a real good middle 3-4-5-6. Its those top spots offensively.
Defensivley is Ankeil out of the question? I could live with Werth playing in CF next to Morse about once a week………
Boy this team is in dire need of Jason Bourne in CF. He could have been had last year.
Disagree here, from what I’ve seen Werth can potentially be a very solid CF. And granted I only went to Hagerstown once, but Harper looks pretty good in right/center. He’s definitely working on it and mistakes happen to everyone, he’ll be fine.
by RossingtonCollins on Dec 23, 2011 2:17 AM EST up reply actions
The numbers support this
His outfield defensive numbers tend to agree that he could play an ok center field. If he can get back to running a high OBP I might even bat the guy leadoff. He has more power than a typical leadoff hitter, but let’s face it…if your choice is a guy with speed who gets on base, but has “too much pop” and a guy who just doesn’t get on base…I’ll take the former.
But man I hate Morse as on outfielder. I really think he belongs at first base.
Most numbers might support this, but one doesn't...
33, that’s how old Jayson Werth will be next season and lots of much better CF have found it difficult to play the position past their early 30’s. Werth is fine in RF, but I wouldn’t want to push it much more than a year, which acquiring Fielder would do.
Ross Detwiler will have a breakout year...Believe It!...and I'm serious this time!
Then how do you explain?
-10 comment
Cameron who is 39 and still a top CF. Two years ago which is still older than Werth he
was the BoSox starter!!!!
If anything offense declines first not defense unless you have the wrong physicality and most assuredly Werth DOES NOT!
1
how is Cameron still a top anything??
he was really bad defensively with the Red Sox and a huge bust for them. And Werth doesn’t have near the athletic ability Cameron had.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I can imagine Jason Bourne in center
We’d win every game because the other team would all be dead.
by Armless Penguin on Dec 23, 2011 2:57 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
although the Minis would really chew up the outfield grass ...
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
Morse is a defensive liability wherever he is
I’d rather take Fielder and his expected value than the huge Question mark of Morse. If Morse starts out strong again when Harper is ready then deal him. If not, well you lose nothing b/c obviously Morse wasn’t the answer.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
huh
where will Morse play when Harper is ready? of course you deal him.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I think this article sums up why this is a good trade for the Nats
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=sweetspot&id=19437
We all get enamored of our kids and with the Internet we can follow them just like the major league club. But many prospects never live up to the hype, and getting proven major league talent is often the smarter move.
"I was a victim of a series of accidents. As are we all."
---Malachi Constant
by The Herndon Kid on Dec 23, 2011 7:55 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions
I agree.
Prospects are what they exactly are: prospective players. They work out, they don’t.
Cole, Peacock, Norris, and Milone weren’t going to help the Nats much in 2012. Gio will.
The scary part is that I don't even know if I'm being sarcastic or not
but its not just about 2012
what about 2013-2018?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
and your point is?
Gonzalez is nice, but he’s going to have to fill in quite a bit of value. Even if guys like Cole or Norris wouldn’t get time, they could have been part of a deal for a CF or 1B
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I think this is somewhat true
But I’m concerned that Gonzales can be a front of the rotation starter, the walks scare me especially and if this is the route they were going to go, why not have traded for Jonathan Sanchez who has better pure stuff with similar inconsistency, but at a much lower price? Gonzales pitched in front of a very good defense at a great pitcher’s park, many scouts have questioned his mental makeup so it remains to be seen whether he can develop into a Tom Glavine type or if he’ll be the next Oliver Perez. Still, Cole is the only prospect they gave up in this deal that could come back to bite them in the butt.
Ross Detwiler will have a breakout year...Believe It!...and I'm serious this time!
Had to make a move eventually and left-handers were becoming scarce ...
Needed to make progress before it was too late. Strike while the iron is hot, etc.
I agree with that Comp.
I think Gio is basically Jonathan Sanchez and that’s why I don’t like this deal.
Hopefully his 8 pro seasons of 4.1 bb/9 ip are just an aberration? God I hope he learns to throws strikes before his luck with all those runners on runs out.
by Jordven Strasermann on Dec 23, 2011 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
Gio > Sanchez
Gio throws harder, is younger, and gets more ground balls. Gio’s still young enough to improve his BB’s. Also Gio’s numbers will improve moving leagues.
Lot to give up but we now have a young power lefty who’s cheap to boot.
We Aim to Maim - JoseRijo es mi Amigo aka court
by rfk428 on Dec 23, 2011 5:28 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Options
Center field free agents (according to the MLBTR free agent tracker):
Rick Ankiel
Yoenis Cespedes (eventually)
Kosuke Fukudome
Scott Hairston
Willie Harris
Jason Michaels
Corey Patterson
Cody Ross
Dewayne Wise
I’m not really falling out of my seat for any of these.
I don't have a very high opinion of southern California, in sports or in general
Missed one. Yoenis Cespedes.
"I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you."
-Leslie Nielsen, Airplane
Nope. See right below Ankiel
I’m not convinced Cameron’s an improvement over Ankiel, especially given the age difference. Unless Rizzo was specifically looking for a RH OF bat for the bench, I’d rather have The Arm than someone old enough to have played with Rock (Raines) and Rags (Righetti).
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
I kind of like Cody Ross
He has some pop in his bat, can play relatively good defense and is coming off a down year in which he had to face a lot of NL West pitching while playing in a pitcher’s park. He’s a streaky hitter, but one that won’t require a huge investment so if a deal presents itself he can fairly easily transition to being the 4th OF. If money’s not an object though, I’d go with Cespedes.
Ross Detwiler will have a breakout year...Believe It!...and I'm serious this time!
I agree on Cody Ross.
He apparently only want a 2 year deal as well.
by jimmylauderdale on Dec 23, 2011 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
I like Ross, but he's not a good CF option
he’s passable there, and is a good 4th OF/pinch hitting option, but not an everyday guy. I’d still go for him, but I think we should look to trade for a young guy like Charlie Blackmon via Colorado.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Any CF is going to have left-handed bat ...
You can take that to the bank and deposit it like golden eagles.
See Morgan, Nyjer.
The CF is going to come from within: Its going to be one of:
1. Corey Brown [LHB]
2. Brian Goodwin [LHB]
3. Roger Bernadina [LHB]
- less likely --
4. Michael Taylor [RHB]
5. Eury Perez [RHB]
Goodwin, Taylor and Perez aren't close to ML ready
Brown and Bernadina aren’t good options either. The nats should find a CF from outside the org until Goodwin and Taylor are ready.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Correction
Jason Michaels is under a minor league contract with the Nats for 2012, as is Mike Cameron. They don’t light me up by any stretch of the imagination, but they’re on board.
"Things are going great, and they're only gettin' better..." Timbuk3
Trade SP for a CF?
Stephen Strasburg, Jordan Zimmermann, John Lannan, Chien-Ming Wang, Ross Detwiler, Tom Gorzelanny and Gio Gonzalez. They need 5 SP and one long reliever, so that is 6 slots and 7 pitchers. Do they trade one for a CF? Detwiler is out of options. John Lannan and Tom Gorzelanny the FA in 2 years. Do the Nats still have enough depth in ML Ready prospects to trade away a SP? Can they get a CF and a near ML ready prospects for Lannan or Gorzelanny?
Probably not
Neither of those guys have enough value to bring back a CF. Also with CMW, you have to kind of count that as 6.5 SP’s because you don’t know how much you’ll get out of him.
Ross Detwiler will have a breakout year...Believe It!...and I'm serious this time!
Looks can be deceiving, and so can pitching depth
Let’s assume we have no injuries. No. Let’s not. Injuries are part of the game. Furthermore, don’t forget that Strasburg’s under an innings limit, and he will actually pitch no more than about 1/2 a full season, if that.
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
170 innings is my guess
Well more than half a season.
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
Your guess
…is as good as mine. No better.
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
...but it is fervently to be hoped that you are correct
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
I'm pretty sure his limit will be close to Zimm's 2011
But they gave Stras that one extra start at the end of the season, presumably to allow for an extra start or two in 2012. Hence my 170 guess (there is some method to the madness).
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
Sorry, but we cannot be sure, not even "pretty sure," that he'll repeat JZimm's remarkable 2011 comeback
Everyone has their fingers crossed – better yet, if you’re a praying man (as am I), ye’ might put in a word now and then. This uncertainty surely has Rizzo snatching for his hair – like the guy who has lost his arm, but somehow it still hurts him – and assiduously striving for pitching “depth.” T’ain’t depth at all. It’s called hoping for the best, and preparing for the worst.
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
No, you missed my point.
I was saying I was “pretty sure” that Strasburg’s innings limit will be around 170. I have no doubt whatsoever he’ll have no trouble achieving that mark.
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
Still got one more pitcher than before.
I undestand the injury risk. Since they don’t trust the remaining prospects to fill in, Detwiler and Gorzelanny start in the pen. Who gets bumped off the 25 man roster?
I don't see that.
I think this past deal really caught us short handed with pitching depth. We will need people to eat Strasburg’s innings at some point, and we will likely be dealing with injuries as almost every rotation does. At this point we would need to add another starter via free agency or in a trade before we would be able to deal form our major league pitching.
A little part of me believes that Rizzo will make a real push to sign Prince and hope that the Nats can do something in the division in our window which would become 2012-2016(ish). (This would likely keep his job safe for a longer amount of time as well).
That's my only problem with this deal.
I don’t have a problem losing four prospects in the deal, or any of the four guys on their own, but it seems to me that we really needed at least one of Milone/Peacock hanging out in AAA this season to cover for the inevitable injury, since Detwiler will have to stay up all season.
I suppose Rizzo figured (as Davey would have no doubt suggested) that Detwiler and Gorzelanny will both start in the bullpen and make starts as needed.
I still wish we could get a true leadoff hitter,
But my 11 year old son pointed out to me that the Cards didn’t have much of a leadoff hitter either (Furcal would have been earlier in his career, but how much better than Desmond is he now?)
What is next??
I likethis trade. Our window of time is now and this gives you 3 front line starters. Gio doesn’t have to be #1 he has to be part of the top 3 like Philly. SS, ZIM, Gio gives you a Hallidayu, Hamels, Lee type staff over the next several years. CMW will have a good year and i will take lannan as the 4th or 5th. Hell 2 years ago he was our #1 and now he is #5. Awesome job for Rizzo. In 2 years Purke is going to take his spot and someone will take CMW.
I know there are uncertainties but if we are close after July 4th I think Rizzo will trade for another starter to fill in for SS. It will be nice to be the buyers and not trading our good players for prospects because we are out of the race.
I predicted Rizzo to get Hernandez from Seattle but that didnt happen. I still think Corey Brown will be given the first shot at CF in ST. If he is the answer then great if not then it will be by committee if Harper isn’t ready. Cameron/Shark/Ankiel will provide defense and davey will ride the hot bat.. I do hope that Morse is moved to 1B at some point and a strong outfielder is found to replace him but I am okay with starting the season with what we have. If LaRoche gets off to a fast start (I know it is not his trend) then the line up is balanced and can drive runs in as long as Desi gets on base.
The only problem with Fielder, is what do you do with Werth, or Morse
Werth can only play CF for a few more years.
MOAR SEVERINO!
Like the deal
Its nice to see a lot of the people on this site appear to have calmed down a bit. Guys were so pissed about what we gave up. You cant get an all star thats cheap and under control for 4 years very often the Reds gave more for Latos I think. Rizzo thinks we can compete now and with 1 more move we can lets go buy Fielder. Werth is fine in center for a couple of years and the lineup could be sick
Desmond
Werth
Zimmerman
Fielder
Morse
Harper
Ramos
Espinosa
plus a strong bench with Laroach, Delarosa, Cameron, Bernie, Flores
Lets go NATS
Top two.......
DEZ and Werth?
With Werth playing CF next to to below average defenders?
WOW
Works fine for me, better than the Cards had.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
by Doncosmic on Dec 23, 2011 2:36 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
A Reasonable Deal
Trades are always risky, but this one is a reasonable risk for both sides. Sure, we would like to get an all star for nothing, but that doesn’t happen.
McCutcheonn
Would Pittsburg have taken these four for McCutcheon?
No, not unless they threw in Rendon
And probably Goodwin too.
Ross Detwiler will have a breakout year...Believe It!...and I'm serious this time!
Whoosh.
How about that? Boswell rants, Nats move. I think Boz’s next column should be a full-on screed about how they never do “free pizza day” at the Park.
Who’s with me?? (Happy Holidays, everyone.)
That's a great idea.
I also think that Boz should go on a rant about how terrible a play-by-play guy Carpenter is, FP seems like he might actually turn in to something, but Carpenter gets worse the more you have to listen to him.
Ross Detwiler will have a breakout year...Believe It!...and I'm serious this time!
Don't worry
Carp wasn’t renewed. I haven’t heard anything yet on the 2012 TV team…
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
this trade has been in the works since the winter meetings
don’t give Boz so much credit, it will only encourage him
Another great thing we have going for us is the bullpen depth
In fact, every reliver at AAA and AA has the potential to be a MLB player. You will have Severino, Tatusko, Wilkie, Zinicola, Mandel, Martin, VanAllen, Lehman, Testa, Nelo, etc all of who are potential middle innings guys.
MOAR SEVERINO!
I was hoping they wouldnt land gio and make todd coffey their number 3 guy....
no im kidding. i love the move
theres no such thing as stupid questions...only stupid people
A good night's sleep makes this trade seem more logical
What the Nats gave up for Gio was a pittance compared to the ransom Rizzo almost gave up for Greinke. Yes, it was a quite the haul of prospect arms, but big trades require big pieces. Make no mistake, this was a major move for a franchise that is emerging as a serious threat in the NL. Let’s not forget that the Coliseum is a pitcher’s park, but Nat’s Stadium is no ones idea of a bandbox.
Getting a bat would be a great addition, but we may already have our solution within the system (Harper/Rendon/etc). While on paper a Prince signing may make sense, I do not think that is the answer in the long run.
Ransom.......
Is a good word for it……….
In the end JZIMM, Ramos and ESPI need to be labled UNTOUCHABLE…………
And so far they have.
Someone listed potential allstars: ZIMM, STRAS, JZIMM, Clip………..At some point ESPI, Ramos Morse, Storan and maybe now GIO are going to approach allstar type status……….
Didn't Gio make the all-star as the A's token a couple years ago?
2010?
"I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you."
-Leslie Nielsen, Airplane
Hell, far as that goes
…didn’t we have the WP in the 2011 ASG?
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
Add Strasburg to the list of untouchables
…but that goes without saying, come to think.
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
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