An unlikely trade proposal
A few days ago, Kieth Law reported that Andrew McCutchen was not entirely untouchable, though he was as close as possible. Of course, this rather boring and mundane observation sparked rampant speculation in the rumor mill created by the baseball off season. Team officials were later reported as saying the team had not and was not entertaining proposals for McCutchen. You can read more on this story here. Because there is no player I would rather see on the Nationals rosters (excluding several of the ones already there) I began to think of my own proposal for McCutchen.
Before I begin, let me stop and say if you are a reader that continually bemoans idiots posting stupid fanboy trades, then I invite to read something else. I don't believe that what follows is unreasonable (however exceedingly unlikely it is) but I don't want to deal with a host of ad hominem attacks. So, while I am posting this for the purpose of generating a conversation, if you know that you will be unable to contain your rage at the audacity of a poster to consider a trade of a mega-star like Andrew McCutchen, then please stop now.
I don't believe that the Pittsburg Pirates would trade McCutchen generally, but if they were to make a trade I think that it would require a significant overpay. When looking at what the Pirates need, the most obvious point of need is pitching, their 2011 rotation starters posted ERAs of 3.38, 3.66, 3.83, 4.21, and 4.79. None of them threw even 180 innings. Spot starters offered little hope as well with ERAs of 8.15(9 starts), 4.72 (8 starts), 6.48 (4starts). One might think there was a glimmer of hope in Brian Burres 3.86 ERA over 2 starts, until you look at an FIP of 6.17. Additionally, one of there better pitchers, Paul Maholm 3.66 ERA over 162 IP, is a free agent. There is hope on the horizon, Jameson Taillion, Gerrit Cole, and Stetson Allie are all top prospects if young and unproven.
Therefore, I would offer to trade the Pirates most of a new rotation for McCutchen. I would offer the following: David Price, John Lannan, and Brad Peacock. The major problem with this trade offer is that I'm reasonably sure, MLB won't let you trade pitchers on other teams. So, we would need to do a 3-team trade.
I chose David Price, because if there is any team looking that would consider trading an ace, it would be the Tampa Bay Rays. They have built a team raising young pitching and cost controlled talent. Additionally, I believe that the Nationals match up better with the Tampa Bay Rays than say the Oakland Athletics or the Chicago Cubs, who have also floated the possibility of moving top pitcher.
I initially looked at the Ray's with an eye toward acquiring BJ Upton. However, the stated goals of the organization is to add some offense to the team, so it is difficult seeing them dealing Upton. The Rays greatest needs are at First base and catcher, two positions we have surplus. David Price is a major acquisition, and I would expect that Tampa Bay to see something close to the Matt Garza trade, though I believe it is generally acknowledged that Chicago significantly overpaid there. For David Price, I would offer Derek Norris, Tyler Moore, Adam LaRoche, a pitching prospect, and 80% of Adam LaRoche's salary. The final deal looks like this:
Pittsburgh Recieves:
David Price, John Lannan, and Brad Peacock for Andrew McCutchen
Tampa Bay Recieves:
Derek Norris, Tyler Moore, Adam LaRoche, a pitching prospect, and 80% of Adam LaRoche's salary for David Price.
Washington Recieves:
Andrew McCutchen for Derek Norris, Tyler Moore, Adam LaRoche ( 80% salary), a pitching prospect, John Lannan, and Brad Peacock.
The trade will give the Pirates 3 solid pitchers, after sifting through the remains of their current rotation, the Pirates could field a solidly above average rotation. Price and Peacock are both young enough to anchor starting rotation for years to come, while still allowing fleixibilty for Cole and Tallison to contribute in the near future. And though they would be giving up massive offensive tool, they have a replacement in Starling Marte, a 23 year old CF who with a .332/.370/.500 line in 129 AA games last year. Additionally, the Pirates could sign another middle of the order bat at first base.
From Tampa's perspective, the trade fills a long-term need, a productive young catcher with 6+ cost controlled years and offers replacements for Casey Kotchman and Johnny Damon. I think the pitching prospect is a cornerstone of this deal. The Rays model is based on building value through pitching. Taking a high-upside pitching prospect (Solis, Ray, Cole, or Purke as PTBNL) gives them the option to continue the cycle in 3-4 years when Shields contract runs out, or it is time to move Hellickson or some other pitcher. I could also see James Shields being swapped in for David Price, but I think there are some good reasons to consider why David Price is more likely to go first. I could also see sending Ian Desmond to Tampa Bay, because SS is one of the few places they could use an upgrade not affected already by this trade. My guess is that they would want to swap Desmond for LaRoche, then use the salary relief from Price to re-sign Kotchman.
For the Nationals, the gain is obvious, a superstar on his way to Cooperstown. The cost is also significant. Though some of the players traded here are role players rather than superstars. Peacock, Norris, and (Solis, Ray, Cole, or Purke) are a young, cost-controlled, star-quality talent.
Realistically, I don't ever see this happening, but it has been chewing on my brain so I thought I would share. Feel free to criticize below.
27 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I would never accept this deal if I were Tampa
Price is a top starter with several more years of team control (baseball-reference says he doesn’t hit free agency until 2016). LaRoche is poison at this point, Tyler Moore is minor league vanity, and Norris isn’t a sure thing after hitting .210 in AA at 22 years of age. Norris is a good piece, don’t get me wrong, but you’re pretty much talking about him + nothing else for an all star pitcher with 4 more cheap years left.
A couple thoughts
First, LaRoche is hardly different from Casey Kotchman, who the Rays picked up for next to nothing last year. In fact, if you compared La Roche’s 2010 numbers, they are pretty close to Kotchman.
Second, why would anyone care that Norris hit .210? He did that posting .367 OBP and a .446 SLB, aka .833 OPS, good enough for wRC+ of 129.
Third, Moore posted an .846 OPS for a wRC+ of 127. He would be a good DH prospect.
Fourth, you seem to have left out the pitching prospect who might be good enough to replace 80% of Price’s value.
I’m not saying that Tampa would accept this trade, but you misrepresent the players involved.
I think you overvalue Nats players
LaRoche – very unlikely he repeats 2010 numbers, and even if he does, that’s not great for 1B. You said yourself they picked up Kotchman for next to nothing. So why would they take LaRoche in a deal that gives up a top pitcher?
Norris – .avg is still important. Now, I’m not saying he’s not a top prospect – he still put up a good .obp and .slg, at a premium defensive position, and his .avg can be explained by an abnormally low babip. I’m just saying he’s’ not worth Price by himself, as Price is still cheap for 4 years, and has established himself as a top starting pitcher (whereas Norris is not established as anything yet).
Also, you said in a comment below that the Rays want salary relief – Price signed a 6 year/8.5M deal in 07, so he’s very cheap this year. Then he has 3 years of arbitration left after that (he would be super 2 eligible this year if not for the contract).
Moore – nah. As a 24 year old in AA, he had a WORSE THAN 4.5 SO/BB ratio. A .314 obp. I wouldn’t be surprised if some team added him as a cheap bench bat in a few years, but he’ll never be good. Sorry, that’s what I believe.
Prospect – normally, when people say “and a pitching prospect” and that’s it, they mean a bottom-tier player. Though even if it were Purke (who they can’t trade because he was drafted less than a year ago), I wouldn’t do it if I were Tampa. Price is one of the best SP in the AL and is cheap for 4 years.
Pretty much you’re giving the Rays players the Nats don’t need for a top 10 pitcher with 4 years of team control left.
Well, it is fair to have different valuations of players, but I think you should reexamine your position
LaRoche, 2010 was a down year for LaRoche. I agree that it is possible that he may not be able come back from injury, but that seems like the kind of thing that you could determine now. However, assuming he comes back at near-norm levels, then he could easily match 2010 numbers.
Norris, .avg is still important? Based on what? You say this, then proceed to discuss how it can be explained away by a low babip. Then you say he’s not worth Price by himself. I agree that he isn’t, which is why I am including 3 other players.
Moore, is easily weakest trade piece here, but I still think that he offers solid production for minimal cost.
Prospect- I was unaware of this rule of conventional wisdom. Another commentor made the similar remarks below. However, I did specify in the piece I meant (Solis, Ray, Cole, or Purke as PTBNL).
Salary Relief— David Price is in arbitration this year. He cancelled his contract. Price is projected to earn about $7 million or roughly the same price as Shields. Which is why Tampa might move Price instead of Shields.
I have, as you put it, "reexamined" my position
and I still think the Rays would be crazy to accept this. Remember you’re only giving them pieces the Nats don’t need in exchange for an ace with 4 years of team control.
They would have LaRoche for one year, and there’s only an outside chance he performs as well as below average for his position.
On Norris, yes, avg is important. A walk isn’t going to score that runner from 2nd. And I didn’t mean to “explain away” his avg with his babip – he still had 423 plate appearances, and a low avg last year. His avg will probably go up, but I don’t think it will ever be good. Couple this with his (reported) average defense, the fact that he’s still 1-2 years away, the fact that he’s not a proven major leaguer, the fact that at 22 there’s still aspects of his game that hurt him at the minor league level, the fact that he struck out over once/game in AA – yea, he’ll be decent, I think, but it’s no guarantee, and certainly not worth giving up an ace.
I don’t see “solid” production from Moore. He’s a 24 year old in AA with no obp and a 4.5 so/bb ratio. As I said, in a few years, maybe a team will let him sit on their bench because he’s cheap. Maybe.
Prospect – it’d have to be a top top prospect. Then, along with Norris (I’d say no thanks to LaRoche if I were the Rays, take Moore only if I need the fill-in in the minors this year), maybe I’d take it. But I don’t know if the Nats have a prospect that’s good enough to make this trade worth it (remember Purke can’t be traded yet).
Salary relief – I didn’t know that – but I still think 7M is a steal for an ace with 4 years of team control. Better they unload elsewhere – big market teams would love to get say, Shields or Upton.
It’s pretty rare I’m accused of actually undervaluing Nats prospects.
So, you are giving up
Lannan, Peacock, some pitching prospect, Moore, Norris, LaRoche, and 6.4 million dollars for McCutchen? This seems like an awful lot.
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
I dont know if Pittsburg will make that trade
I think they would want more than Peacock and Norris as the centerpiece of the trade. If you want a better idea, I would post this on the Pirates site and see what they say. I also think there is no way Tampa accepts that. They want more than Norris, 1 year of LaRoche, and Moore for one of the best starters in the AL
MOAR SEVERINO!
I don't understand your comment.
I dont know if Pittsburg will make that trade. Think they would want more than Peacock and Norris as the centerpiece of the trade.
Did you mean Peacock and Price? Because I agree that the Pirates wouldn’t take this deal if Tampa weren’t involved. But I think we can get more value than the sum of our contributions by including Tampa, because the players we are offering Tampa have more value to the Rays than they do to the Pirates.
If you want a better idea, I would post this on the Pirates site and see what they say.
The Pirates fans would never agree to trade McCutchen short of the entire Phillies rotation and the Red Sox line-up.
I also think there is no way Tampa accepts that. They want more than Norris, 1 year of LaRoche, and Moore for one of the best starters in the AL
They are getting more than that. They are also getting a top pitching prospect (Solis, Ray, Cole, or Purke as PTBNL). It is true that Tampa might take another deal somewhere else, but I think 3 solid prospects is a good haul. Especially, since Tampa will likely need some salary relief this year.
I think that there is little chance of this ever coming to fruition. McCutchen is the face of the franchise now, and the Reds might have better hitting prospects to offer Tampa. I am just speculating on what could be an interesting trade opportunity. A more realistic option would be the Nationals and Pirates connecting over Starling Marte.
Ok, top pitching prospect makes more sense
when I hear pitching prospect, I assume a bottom tier guy. I think if you put in Cole, or Purke this has a much better chance of happening
MOAR SEVERINO!
I guess I missed that memo.
Clearly, I was absent when everyone else learned that pitching prospect meant fringing lower tier guy. You certainly weren’t the only one. Oh well, my bad.
No, I don't think so
As much as I like McCutchen, I wold not want the Nats to bare the cupboard for him — which is what I think this would do.
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
I don't think it would be as empty as you think
In this trade, who do you view as irreplaceable?
It's not that Lannan and Peacock are irreplaceable
but trying to replace BOTH of them will be difficult. It’s that sort of thing. There’s really not a lot of players in the minors who are ready to come up and fill that void. Do this trade and the Nats will have to scramble around for the services of another starter, and I really don’t want to see Livo in Nats red again.
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
That was my thought as well
Currently, there’s one spot in the rotation undetermined (unless it’s been decided the #5 spot is Detwiler’s). This trade takes out one of the prime candidates (Peacock) for that spot, who’s also potentially Strasburg’s handcuff, and also opens a second spot (Lannan). By making this trade, you almost necessitate having to sign one of the free agent pitchers.
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
Well they're already linked to starters anyway
Stras, Zim, (Oswalt, Wilson, Buehrle, whoever), Wang, Detwiler, Milone is already better than the rotation with Lannan and Peacock. It’s not that hard to find a 7th starter if thats what you’re worrying about.
Whats the frequency, Kenneth?
I disagree.
A rotation of Stras, Zimnn, FA pitcher, Lannan/Peacock, Wang is much better than any rotation with Detwiler in it.
Skins rule
Well yeah that rotations the best
But regarding his proposed trade, it’s one or the other
Whats the frequency, Kenneth?
Well, there are a number of starters available.
The trade pretty much assume that we would pick up a starting pitcher. My personal pick is Buerhle but I like lefty finesse pitchers. But we could get Wilson, Oswalt, or somebody else. Hiroki Kuroda is also available, and could be a good buy on a short-term deal. Paul Maholm is basically John Lannan. Plus, we still have Gorzalanny for 2013.
I hardly think that the Nationals will have to scrabble to sign a new pitcher. They just might pay a bit more, but considering you think that we can add Fielder without any belt tighting I’m sure we can find a few million of a back of the rotation starter or to outbid the frickin Marlins.
I'm not sure either Washington or Tampa agree to that trade
I like the thought of getting McCutchen, but think Washington’s giving up too much, and Tampa getting too little.
While Tampa’s always been concerned about payroll, and trading/letting players walk when they become expensive, I haven’t heard anything about them looking to trade an All-Star pitcher in Price. (Shields, yes). For Price, they’d be getting: a minor leaguer whose upside is Mickey Tettleton but has serious questions; a (mostly) free first baseman for one year, who may or may not be recovered from major shoulder surgery; and two additional minor-league prospects.
Washington, meanwhile, gives up: two of their top ten prospects, their (currently) #3 pitcher, two other prospects (one unnamed), and $7million (albeit with the benefit of freeing 1B for Morse).
Of course, I didn’t think the Pirates would give even a hint of making McCutchen available. I applaud the thinking creatively; I just agree with your comment above that its unlikely.
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
Well, of course, I am not sure that any side would deal on this. However,
Matt Garza brought in 4 top prospects and one marginal mlb player. I think the general consensus is that was an overpay. We are offering 2 top prospects, one lower tier prospect, and one marginal mlb player.
On Washington’s side, we are actually giving up 3 top prospects, our current #3, a recovering 1b, Tyler Moore, and a big pile o’ cash. However, I think the trade would still be a good deal, for the following reasons:
1. 3 top prospects (Norris, Peacock, and let’s say Solis)
Norris is blocked, and we have a couple other promising catchers behind him. Even without Peacock and Solis, we have other pitchers that project to similar roles. (Purke, Cole, Ray, Milone, Meyer). While these prospects are good, and would help the team, the value they provide as trade chips is greater.
2. John Lannan- I actually like Lannan. I know that there are several posters here who think that his pitching eyes bleed and babies cry. However, there are a few good free agent options in SP this year, whereas there are none in the CF market.
3. Adam LaRoche/big pile o’ money- The big pile o’ money is already spent. We are going to have to pay the money regardless of what happens. We could try swapping him at the deadline, but that requires us to take the risk with him. If he doesn’t, then we lose big time. Both in terms of the lost production on the field and the salary that we have to pay. For Tampa Bay, the calculus is a little different. To them he is a $1million bet, if he has a 2.5 WAR season then they win about $9 million. If he puts up a 1 WAR season, then he’s a gain of about $3million. If he busts, then he’s a $1 million dollar loss. I figure this is actually the most problematic offering.
4. Tyler Moore. I think he would be more interesting to an AL team.
Basically, we have several prospects that project to be 3.5 WAR players, which are incredibly useful to any team that actually has a budget and can’t afford double-digit annual contracts at every position. The problem for Washington is that there is little room for these kinds of upgrades on the current team. We need big fish now.
Who are the other promising catchers beyond Norris? I don’t think any other catchers in our system or Top 20. Do you mean Flores?
Waiting to bang my drum in parades for the Nats and Caps.
Well, that was me being lazy.
An article discussing the need to put Norris on the Nationals 40-man for the Rule 5 draft. In it the writer mentions “the Nationals … amassed an embarrassment of riches at catcher.”
Wilson Ramos and Jesus Flores (majors), Jhonatan Solano (Triple-A), Norris (Double-A), Sandy Leon (Single-A Potomac) and David Freitas (Single-A Hagerstown). I had heard of everyone, but David Freitas. After looking him up, his numbers were so good, I thought surely Sandy Leon must be doing better to be in Hi-A. Solano also had a pretty good year, catchers usually come up slow. We have some prospects, and we can always draft more.
I don't know that any of the teams would go for it, or that it would be a good idea for the Nats if they did.
However, having once parlayed Laynce Nix into Andrew McCutchen via a 4- or 5-way trade in a baseball sim (computer GMs are teh stoopid!), I applaud the attempt.
"If you ain't got the pants, you ain't got a chance." --PerryMason (on the sartorial component of being a Real Ballplayer)
Yeah, just trying to maximize trading value for the Nationals offerings
I think the Nationals are more likely to connect for a lower level offerinig. I saw a piece about sending pitching to the Red Sox for some outfield prospects. The article didn’t mention my personal pick, Che-Hsuan Lin though.
Not a Bad Proposition.....
…..but if you can’t get Tampa involved, which I think would be tough considering I think they want MORE for Price, then I would propose the following: SIGN PRINCE FIELDER, and then trade Morse, Flores, Peacock, and whomever you see fit from the minors(likely two or three additional players) to the Bucs. No? I love Morse also, and was arguably his biggest fan and driver of the Morse Bandwagon last off-season….but Fielder and McCutchen in our lineup looks pretty solid, and they would be around for a while. By the way….WHO CARES who bemoans your ideas….WE ALL have ridiculous ideas, right? Its’ what being a fan is all about! lol Enjoyed your post.
"Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do" - USAF Core Values
Yes, Tampa is hard to get involved for value reasons, Pittsburg is hard to get involved for values reasons.
That being said I can’t see the Pirates trading McCutchen for anything short of a proven elite talent. While Morse is very good, I don’t think that we have any elite pieces to trade the Pirates. I suppose I could see sending Morse to Tampa instead of LaRoche, but I think something would need to come back to the Nationals maybe a lower level prospect.

by 


























