Nationals Daily Evolutions 2/14/11
O, great muse of yore we sing of thee with mighty verse transplanted from an eastern land. Green grass, wind aided homers, aging vets, and youngster darlings destined for minors camp. --Jenn from natsfangirls.com
The Nationals have new batting practice jerseys. --nationalsenquirer.com
Meet Fly Eli or TAFKED (The Artist Formally Known as Elijah Dukes). --Howard Altman at tbo.com
Dukes also claims that teammates hid marijuana in their man purses and he smoked on charter flights out of peer pressure. The only question this raises in my mind is how does one secretively smoke pot on an airplane. --Adam Kilgore from washingtonpost.com
Bryce Harper has a list of goals for Spring Training. --Bill Ladson at nationals.com
Al Kaline was a major leaguer at 18 and so far he is impressed with Bryce Harper. --Bill Ladson from nationals.com
Jim Bowden feels that Bryce Harper is the best prospect in baseball. --Jim Bowden at foxsports.com
Jayson Werth's contract voted to be the worst of the off-season. --Jayson Stark from espn.com
It could end up an epic failure. --Rob Neyer at sbnation.com
But the time for talking is just about over and Jayson Werth will get to take the field and show everyone what type of ballplayer he will be for the Nationals. --Adam Kilgore from washingtonpost.com
The answer to the question of Jayson Werth's contract is likely still a few years off unless it becomes a complete failure, much like the Carlos Lee and Vernon Wells deals, but every player that signs a big contract faces that risk. --Dave Gershman from beyondtheboxscore.com
Jose Rijo is suing the Nationals because he claims to not know why he was fired. --Adam Kilgore at washingtonpost.com
Where the Nationals have been and where they are in the Dominican are two different stories. --Adam Kilgore from washingtonpost.com
Strasburg and Zimmermann one day might be a great one two punch, but they have to be healthy first. --Dave Nichols from natsnewsnetwork.com
Everybody wants Strasburg to change his delivery. --Thom Loverro at washingtonexaminer.com
People will have to wait until 2012 for the Avengers, but coming this Spring the Spring Training event of the decade. When Strasburg Meets Harper. --Ben Goessling at masnsports.com
Livan Hernandez is a sure thing to be in the rotation come Opening Day. --Mark Zuckerman from natsinsider.com
Danny Espinosa could be a good bargain. --Jonah Keri at fangraphs.com
Soon enough reality will prove itself to be a beautiful maiden or an ugly beast making now the time for optimism as the Washington Nationals arrive at the Space Coast. --Bill Ladson from nationals.com
This is the strongest rotation the Nationals have had since McCatty and Riggleman arrived (2009). --Byron Kerr from masnsports.com
Not every quality start is at the low point. In fact if one were to check the stats in just quality starts they might find they are pretty good. Maybe in 2011 John Lannan can get back to being the king of the quality start. --Rob Neyer at sbnation.com
One of my greatest flaws in life is I will sometimes over think things. If anyone ask who the breakout star for the 2011 Nationals will be as far as pitching goes the answer is the obvious, Jordan Zimmermann. --Byron Kerr at masnsports.com
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The Jesus is back:
@NationalsPR: Jesus Flores speaking to @adamkilgorewp and @washingnats after working out this morning. http://yfrog.com/h3y8wiwj
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Feb 14, 2011 12:13 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Equally important
Werth’s beard has returned according to this photo by Bill Ladson.
by David Huzzard on Feb 14, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Were I a more charitable fellow
I might post this one on The Good Phight or something to remind them of their major loss in beard supremacy.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 14, 2011 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
HAYYYYY ZUESSSSSS ! ! !
my first Nats T-shirt was a Flores T …. Welceme back
by NewJerseyAveSE on Feb 14, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
I call b.s. on the dope allegations by Dukes...
Not because I don’t believe that some players may be smoking but that Dukes only succumbed to the temptation due to ‘peer pressure’! LOL! Right…I’ll buy that. I also have trouble believing that anyone was smoking anything on charter flights! how stupid does he think folks are?
It's really tragic for sure
Wonder how much of this dope stuff and all started once they started to remove some of the safety net for him his last year. Didn’t he not get all of the security and support in 2009 that the got the year before?
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 14, 2011 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Kilgore w/ Mock update:
@AdamKilgoreWP: He threw to Flores today. Threw hard, plenty of breaking pitches. RT @JohnCarswell – Adam, have you seen Garrett Mock? How is he looking?
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Feb 14, 2011 1:23 PM EST via mobile reply actions
It ain’t the stuff. It’s the stuff when angry men are at the plate trying to hit it. C’mon Garrett get back into the mix. He acutally has the stuff to pass Detwiler. Of course, I’d rather see both succeed.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 14, 2011 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
Sometimes it's hard to be a Nats fan
Livan Hernandez is a sure thing to be in the rotation come Opening Day.
This is just a sign of how bad the Nationals’ pitching is, and will be.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
Since it is already on the cutting room floor
I was going to write this Thursday about storylines you aren’t likely to see in Spring Training and one of them was Livan or Lannan not making the rotation. The only way it could happen is if Wang proved he was healthy and Maya out pitched them by a wide margain. Since it has already been proven that Wang isn’t healthy I do not think this is even a possibility anymore.
by David Huzzard on Feb 14, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Spot On!
Though I think the Nats proved they’d be willing to send Lannan down if he shows an ounce of struggles.
Livan has also been far from reliable the 3 years prior to last year. So? Who knows?
You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!
They gave the man a major league deal to eat innings
There’s almost no chance Livan doesn’t make it. Likewise, they paid Lannan to not go to arbitration. Be shocked if he doesn’t get to go as well. I’m just hoping that they do well.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 14, 2011 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Lighten up Francis...
..It’ll be alright, I promise.
BTW if you truly believe that I’ve got some land to sell you near Everglades, Fl….
It's just disheartening to see stories time and again with the following "logic" in some form
- Livan will most likely not be as good as he was last year
- Livan is the only one who has a spot in the rotation tied up, (or, worse:
2(b) Livan will be the Opening Day starter)
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
I agree with you... It's amazing to see him strike someone out with a 84mph heater but...
… it breaks all lines of logic and can’t possibly be sustainable. There is no certainty in this pitching line up, but with that being said you can only hope for something good to happen. You can’t live on hope forever, though!
can’t possibly be sustainable
Jamie Moyer was told it wasn’t sustainable for years. The naysayers were eventually right, of course – although admittedly by then Moyer was in his mid-40’s.
You want statistical analysis? Livo’s 2011 season is no less likely to be as good as his 2010 season than his 2010 season was likely to happen. Any statistician will tell you that any individual coin flip is an independent test of odds from what went before. Even if you flip a coin and get heads four times straight, the chances of the next flip being heads is still 50%.
well, yes and no
It’s not quite true that individual seasons are independent trials. There are some reasonably strong predictions one can make from recent and long-term trends.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
This somehow brings me back to Jurassic Park and Dr. Malcom's Chaos Theory and drops of water on skin.
Does that tree make a sound when no one is around?
I’m waiting to hear what kind of shape Livo’s in. That’ll change the formula of the flip of the coin for sure.
Fat = 2009
Svelt = 2010
true....but
its the [false] law of averages. the thing is, pitcher performance is not a result of chance. each year that goes by, livo is a year older, has more experience, has more wear on his body, hitters know him better, etc etc etc.
if this were any of the commonly cited examples of false averages (coin flip, fetal gender) then it would be correct to say that its even money that livo will be better or worse than last year.
we know empirically though that in general, a pitcher one year older in his 30’s (or 40’s, 50’s whichever you choose to believe in his case) will far often degrade compared to the previous season. performance is not ruled by chance but on a lighter note, a flipped coin may be the most sane way to guess how livo’s season will go
OTLs are worthless in the playoffs
Oh, agreed - I'm not seriously suggesting that it's a pure coin flip
It’s just that Livo came into camp in 2010 saying that, after struggling with injuries that kept him from being in top shape in previous years, he was able to get into shape that enabled him to throw effectively. Then he … went out and threw effectively in 2010. While his 2010 season was anomolous, it’s at least conceivable that it was only partially luck/random factor and was at least in part attributable to improved health and fitness. While I’m not counting on Livo being a 3.66 ERA guy this season (and I don’t think the Nationals are either), as long as he’s able to sustain the racquetball workouts and stays in shape it seems at least reasonably possible that he pitches marginally effectively – an ERA between 4.25 and 4.75, for example. Which (except for the few weeks that Starsburg was with the team) would be MILES better than what the Nationals got from their #2-5 spots in the rotation.
To use RobBob’s original formulation, this is some indication of how bad the pitching “is” – right now, as Spring Training opens. I disagree that it’s an indication of how bad the pitching “will be” because we don’t know how the rest of the staff will develop, either in Spring Training or as the season unfolds. And most importantly for me, indications are still that the Nationals pitching will be better than it “was” – indicating that the team is progressing.
Zimmermann's got a 4.71 career ERA
and that’s inflated by his virtual “injury-rehab” stint at the ML level last season. Can he be better than Livan? Of course he can! Will he be better than Livan? It’s not a certainty, but I’d put good money on it.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
For what it's worth, I quite agree
If Zimmermann isn’t better than Livo, it’s not really good news for the Nationals.
It's all luck
Livo’s xFIP (that which he controls) has been flat these past three years.
Livo’s BABIP and ERA have fluctuated wildly, indicating that his style of pitching is rather dependent on good luck. Looking at his career, if he gets a BABIP under .300, his ERA is under 4.00. If he gets a BABIP of over .318, his ERA is over 5.00.
His chances of having good luck are as good as his chances of having bad luck are as good as his chances of having normal luck.
It’s a flip of a three sided coin.
FWIW, another stat to ponder
According to fangraphs, Livo’s 2nd half ERA (4.02) was a “perfect match” for his first half FIP. As the article noted, “[t]hose of us who kept predicting the bottom to fall out for Hernandez in 2010 are still waiting. Meanwhile, his second half ERA of 4.02 was a perfect match for his first half FIP.”
It feels to me like RobBob assumes that if Livo pitches disaster will ineluctably follow. Me, I think that Livo has a puncher’s chance of remaining effective, and that until he shows that he isn’t, his success last year (vis other pitchers on the staff) gives him a slight head start as spring training opens.
"Ineluctably"
It’s a good word. It’s a bit stronger than I would have used. More like “probably”. In any case, the team hasn’t been very good with Livan pitching for them lately, so why should that change in 2011?
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
Irrelevant argument
The team hasn’t been very good with Ryan Zimmerman playing 3b, either. I still think he’s pretty good.
OK, but I doubt...
that anyone would claim that RZ is part of the problem.
Point taken nonetheless.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
Well, the other side of that is many of our pitchers may be “luckier” this year, due to better defense. So we’ll have to see how it shakes down. Yeah, Livo’s probably going to regress. But he can regress to like 10-11 with a 4.50 ERA or so and I’d sign it up for that.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 14, 2011 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting old article
About pitchers aging and how pitchers that make it past 30 tend to not decline right away. Of course Livan could be in his 40’s for all we know.
http://assets.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/schwarz_alan/1423789.html
by David Huzzard on Feb 14, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
It's Monday, time for RobBob's "Livo" post
I’m a “glass is quarter full” kinda guy. Give me a better rotation 1-5 than last year, with a better ERA (and FIP, for those so inclined) with an emphasis on the younger guys and I’m OK with the season. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and it’s a long way out of a 186-298 (2008-10 record) hole. I do have a sense that (finally!) the organization is going in a right direction. In the meantime, I begrudge not Livo his Opening Day honors, and will be there to cheer his every eephus pitch.
Rob, you want Jordan Zimmermann to pitch opening day – I get that, he clearly has the most upside of any of the pitchers on the roster, and a lot is riding on his progress. But he’s likely in the rotation regardless, and isn’t it the same rotation whether he’s pitching in the #1 or the #2 spot?
I am not so much on "why isn't Zimmermann the #1 starter?",
as I am on “why is Livan the #1 starter?” It screams “don’t look for any improvement on the previous year’s pathetic pitching performance”. The Nats should be, but are not, going into Spring Training saying the Livan is fighting for the last spot in the rotation.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
Why?
Fighting for spot number five? Which four pitchers push him to spot five? Based on last year, Livan is one of our better options. I don’t understand the hate.
The "hate" comes from the notion that we should be judging based on last year
It’s what tripped up so many fans about Nyjer Morgan, who for about 6 weeks in 2009 looked like a fantastic player, which flew right in the face of his entire history, but was nonetheless seen by fans to be an indicator of the “real Morgan”. “He just needed a change of scenery”, I believe was the story we were given. Now the story’s about Livan, who by most accounts was the luckiest pitcher on the face of the planet last year, but somehow is seen by Nats fans as a stalwart inning-eating defier of the laws of physics.
He might be the best the Nats have to offer. I can’t say for sure, but I tend to believe the long-term trends a lot more than the recent spurts.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
Unfair comparison
Nyjer played out of his mind for six weeks. Livo’s numbers are for six months – he started strong, wobbled in June, then recovered and pitched effectively well into September. While Livo’s numbers were different from his performance the previous couple of seasons they were hardly unprecedented for him. Long term trends for a pitcher at Livo’s age (whatever that happens to be) aren’t good, so he should drop off. While I don’t discount good fortune as part of Livo’s success last year, I also don’t completely discount improved health and fitness. We’ll see.
Many of the same people who argue against Livo also argue against Lannan being a part of the rotation. Partially because watching him pitch can be excruciating. When Lannan struggled early last year, there was a distinct element of “AHA! We told you he wasn’t very good” that ran through the posts. And yet Lannan came back and pitched effectively at the end of the season, with his K/9 rate up above career norms and his BB/9 rate down. And yet he is still reviled by many sabermetric fans. My question to them is this – which is more “representative” of Lannan’s career? The 2 1/2 seasons (2008, 2009, second half of 2010) when he was an effective MOR starter, or the first half of 2010? If a pitcher consistently outperforms his xFIP over a career, is that an indication of an extremely fortunate pitcher … or a limitation or blind spot in the statistical formula?
Several points made
For the record, I’d like to address the history of Livan’s 2011. He started 33 games, so I’m going to not-so-arbitrarily split the season into three 11-week triads.
Apr 11 – Jun 4: 73 IP, 18 ER (2.22 ERA), 30 SO (3.7 K/9), 23 BB (2.8 BB/9), 7 HR (.86 HR/9) .238 BABIP (!), 20% LD
Jun 10 – Aug 2: 71.1 IP, 32 ER (4.03 ERA), 48 SO (6.1 K/9), 18 BB (2.3 BB/9), 2 HR (.25 HR/9), .319 BABIP, 24% LD
Aug 7 – Oct 3: 67.1 IP, 36 ER (4.81 ERA), 36 SO (4.8 K/9), 23 BB (3.1 BB/9), 7 HR (.94 HR/9), .327 BABIP, 22% LD
Aside from the strikeout and walk totals (which paradoxically improved midseason) his year went from very good to pretty good to not-good-at-all. How he managed to only give up 2 HR in that middle portion is beyond me (he’s not throwing a spitter is he?)
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
Rob what’s the LD multiplier to get BABIP? I know you’re supposed to quote both, and I’m never sure exactly how you go from LD to get predicted BABIP.
That said, shouldn’t a better defensive Nats team keep him somewhere around where the total performance was the final two of your thirds?
Hey, I like Jordan Zimmermann as much as anybody, but I don’t think making Lannan and Opening Day starter was good for him, and I don’t think that it would be good for Zimmermann either. Let him pitch against the other team’s no. 2 guy and let’s see if Livo can eephus his way to lightning in a bottle for one Opening Day magic start if he shows he can be competent.
After this year, I support all of your efforts to ship Livo on the next bus out of town. Preferably, he’d be a tradable asset come the deadline. Of course, could we actually be talking about Livo’s Type B status come the end of the year after last year’s success?
Play the Matt Capps game with him. Maybe that can help you accept the inevitable. Pump his valuable from the 4/5 starter he actually is to the smoke and mirrors “somebody wants Kevin Millwood!” that came around last year and hope you can get value for him by having him be one of the better pitchers in the rotation.
Perhaps you should listen to Sammy Solis’ start on your ipod/ipad/iphone or something when Livo starts and your at the park?
I feel your pain but I have rationalized the inevitable rather than futilely decided to go upstream against The RiZzO.
[ducks and runs]
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 14, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
It would be absurd, and I mean ABSURD, for the Nationals to come into spring training saying Livo is fighting for the #5 spot
Coming off a season where he was the team’s only consistent, effective starter – and I mean by miles, and by any metric that you care to examine (short of K/9, I suppose)? Where all of the options had an ERA above 5 last year, except for John Lannan? And no one this side of Lannan pitched half as many innings?
I believe Rizzo was once quoted as saying something to the effect that “performance trumps potential.” Livo performed last year, and that makes him the leader as they start the round in Viera. That doesn’t mean that things can’t change over the next six weeks. The Nats talk up Livo a lot, and he’s earned that by being there for the team and pitching very well last season, thanks much. But do you want to know how much the Nationals really think of Livo long term? They are paying him $1,000,000 to pitch this year – the same as a guy, Chien-Ming Wang, who hasn’t thrown a baseball for the team at all. And less than they are paying Jason Marquis, John Lannan, Tom Gorzelanny, Yunesky Maya, Sean Burnett, and Todd Coffey. If Livo reverts to pre-2010 Livo, then he’s not going to make it past Memorial Day in the rotation. For reasons I’ve given many times elsewhere, I do expect that this year’s rotation will be better than last year’s even with the expectation that Livo won’t be quite so effective. Heck, my hope is that by July he’s moved into the Bautista role as others shoulder him out of the rotation. But that’s for another day. Right now, on 2/14, how could he NOT be the frontrunner for OD starter?
He pitched very well
Through about mid-June last year. Then he was middling. And the previous 3 years he was just plain awful. Performance trumps potential? Then how did he even get a job last year?
I could see Detwiler, Lannan, Zimmermann, Marquis, and Gorzellany pitching ahead of Livo. That’s easy. I can also see Mock and Maya having better springs than Livan and not even getting an honest opportunity to vie for a rotation spot.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
Wasn't Livo a non-roster invitee last season?
He got his job last year the old-fashioned way: he earned it. OK, Houseman reference aside, he continued to pitch well while those around him (Marquis, Lannan) collapsed. And Livo only made the team because he showed up healthier and got people out. Managers tend to like pitchers that get people out.
I agree that Mock and Maya could have better springs than Livo and not get a rotation spot. Again, that’s because spring training only tells you so much. Now, if they pitch MUCH better than Livo then they would go ahead of him. But the team has flexibility with Mock and Maya because they have options. If they only pitch slightly better than Livo, then they go to Syracuse and start every 5th day as a “starter in waiting” – if a pitcher in the DC rotation falters, then they move up, quite possibly quickly. Other pitchers (Livo, Gorzelanny, etc) would have to be exposed to waivers to send them down. The organization isn’t foolish if it wants to keep the overall talent level in the organization higher by stashing those it can stash and giving those it can’t a slight preference in terms of roster spots.
Nobody in their right mind would take Livo, Marquis, or Lannan off of waivers.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
Be my guest.
You want Morgan back while you’re at it?
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
I GUARANTEE you that Lannan would get picked up
A 26yo left-handed starter with a career ERA+ of 103 and averaging 1.3 WAR in his three seasons as a starter, even after last season? A pitcher who, after coming up from AA last year, posted the best sabremetric numbers of his career (K/9 and BB/9)? And is still relatively cost effective? Don’t kid yourself, Lannan would get claimed – and by multiple teams. Just off the top of my head, the Mets would take him in a heartbeat, and it’s possible the Yankees would take him as well. They are giving Bartolo Colon a shot at the rotation!
Marquis wouldn’t get claimed because of his contract; otherwise he’d be in the same camp as the retread pitchers that teams are signing (one or two per roster to see if they strike gold. His market value is probably around a couple million per year.
Livo? The flip side is that Livo might get claimed because of his contract. Kevin Millwood is holding out for $4 million a year, why wouldn’t a team take a chance on Hernandez for $1 million a year?
where is area code 6-4-3 anyway?
Surely there’s a team in the vicinity who likes P2C
OTLs are worthless in the playoffs
And there we go.
It all comes down to Mock! Go Mock! Cut Livo!
[I want to be one of RobBobS’ guys!]
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 14, 2011 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
For almost two years......
I have been on the other side of Rob concerning LIVAN…….Yet the whole time I have stated the NATS goal is to be able to find 5 starters to replace LIVO…….
I can now back Rob on JZIMM, and confirm that Lannan are currently 1-2……anything else is just plain politics……
More ST "news":
@NationalsPR: Among those position players already in Viera: Zimmerman, Werth, Morgan, Desmond, Espinosa and Bixler. #Nationals
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Feb 14, 2011 2:43 PM EST via mobile reply actions
LEER-E-ON-0!
Clap, Clap clap-clap-clap
Two sources close to the Twins now confirm Liriano is on the block. The Twinkies need MI help… go get ’em Rizzo!
I'd finally gotten over the idea of losing an Espinosa/Desi-type...
Sure the Nats will do their due diligence…
Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."
by Patrick Reddington on Feb 14, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
That would be very expensive, methinks
Desi plus Zimmermann plus a reliever plus a prospect for Liriano.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
Do you think that Z(nn) HAS to be a part of that deal?
I think that Desi, Storen and Norris might get it done. In addition to middle infield help, the Twins need bullpen help if Nathan doesn’t make it all the way back. I think that Norris would be very attractive to them as well, as a player to groom so they can move Mauer’s bat to 3b or OF as he gets past 30.
That would still put a hurtin' on the move towards improved defense
The Nats cannot really afford to lose a MI, can they?
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
I agree here. They should be looking at getting rid of surplus...
… to trade positions of need is foolish.
I doubt they could outbid the Yankees
Who have a (much) better farm system and fewer team needs with the glaring exception of starting pitching. It will be interesting to see whether the Twins get an offer they like, given that Liriano has never pitched 200 innings in a season and has had one very good season (2010) since coming back from TJ surgery – his previous two seasons were really crappy. Liriano also has developed a slight reputation for spitting the bit in important games – the Yankees roughed him up twice in the postseason.
That said, if the Nats could get him for Norris, Storen and one of their better pitching prospects (Solis?), I’d pull the trigger.
Montero might be a real good fit for the Twins, right?
They can feel free to DH him as long as they want and let him just occasionally take games away from Mauer while he continues to work on his defense?
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 14, 2011 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
I think it hurts the offense more, actually
Alberto Gonzalez can play defense, and 2b would then become a battle between Gonzo and Cora (with Lombardozzi as the long shot in the wings). Espinosa moves to SS and the defense probably improves there.
The problem is that if you essentially take Desmond out of the lineup and put Gonzo or Cora in, that really weakens your offense.
Don't forget Hairston as a 2B option.
Lombardozzi has zippo chance of making the club. He’s just starting AA and there’s considerable doubt that his bat will play at AAA, let alone MLB.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 14, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
One one hand
You say that you cannot bear the thought of Livo starting on Opening Day. On the other hand you say that you cannot bear the thought of giving up one of your middle infielders for a guy like Liriano who is an upper rotation starter. Don’t know if you can have it both ways.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 14, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
I probably can't
There has to be a happy medium around here somewhere. The trouble is that even if the sell the farm to get Liriano, Livo would still end up pitching most of the year.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
Why would they have been so willing to trade Ramos if they think they need a catcher?
If I’m the Twinkies, they’re doing it to get cheaper in the rotation and somebody will have a starter prospect to give back.
I think that I’m more willing to trade Desmond than Espinosa FWIW, but I’m reluctant to trade either. Regardless, bringing in guys like Hairston have made it a bit easier to stomach trading one of the middle infielders.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 14, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
Ramos and Norris are at different developmental stages
Norris is still a year or two off while Ramos is ML ready – whether he sinks or swims he really has nothing left to prove at AAA. The Twins have to be concerned by Mauer’s power outage last season, and one way of keeping Mauer healthy and effective through the course of his contract would be to transition him to another position as he ages. There’s ample precedent for this, going back to Johnny Bench and before him Yogi Berra. The timing of having a prospect knocking on the door right when you’d contemplate such a transition works better than having a prospect cooling his heels for a couple of years.
On another subject:
Nyjer says he’s going to be “more selective” on the basepaths this year.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
As I recall,
several of the CS’s last year were because Nyjer has problems sliding. Am I dreaming this?
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
i vaugley remember all of last spring being spent on him learning how to slide feet first
then going head first in every attempt during the season. there was one or two where he slid 2/3 of the way to RF then got tagged
OTLs are worthless in the playoffs
In other other news:
Oliver Perez has told the Mets he wants to start.
Submitted without further comment.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
I must say
Listening to the Mets season close on an Oliver Perez EPIC FAIL while my brother and father (Mets/Skins fans) were watching some kind of ‘Skins game on my birthday was friggin’ hilarious.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 14, 2011 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
His stench still pervades our clubhouse
We have a lot of garbage to take out before we are back in the thick of the NL East race. Perez is the foulest part of that garbage. Minaya!!!!!!
UP IN DIS HIZZLE, WE PITCH TO CONTACT!
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 16, 2011 3:45 AM EST up reply actions
Well
I guess we don’t have to worry about you drafting Perez for the Fantasy League. I would love to have known what was going through your mind as the Mets season was ending with all those Perez walks.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
by souldrummer on Feb 16, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
The same thing that was going on in my mind when Dibble...
…made his comments about Strasburg last year when Strasburg injured himself:
“WTF?!”
UP IN DIS HIZZLE, WE PITCH TO CONTACT!
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 16, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions

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