Scott Boras Explains Jayson Werth's 7-Year/$126 Million Dollar Deal With The Washington Nationals.
Jayson Werth changed representation and hired Scott Boras as his agent in late September, just a few weeks before he was set to become one of the most sought-after free agent outfielders on the market this winter. On the eve of the Winter Meetings, after the Washington Nationals had announced that they'd signed the former Philadelphia Phillies' right fielder to a seven-year/$126M dollar deal, the second-biggest contract signed this winter behind only Carl Crawford's 7-year/$142M dollar deal with the Red Sox, Werth's new agent spoke to the press about why his 31-year-old client had decided to leave Philly after four years in a Phillies uniform in which he made four playoff appearances, for the NL East's worst team in five of six seasons (and the last three straight) since the move to the nation's capital in 2005.
"For Jason," Boras said, "this was a decision where he certainly wanted to know that this was a place that was not only going to take every step possible to sign young players in the draft as they've exhibited but also take steps to develop a core system in the minor leagues and also take further steps in advancing the free agent process so that he would be surrounded by quality major league players in addition to those already present in the Nationals' organization."
The contract the Nats gave Werth was roundly criticized with the general sentiment expressed questioning who exactly the Nationals were bidding against since the one-time Baltimore Orioles' draft pick seemingly didn't have any suitors offering anything close to what Washington paid. MLB.com's Todd Zelecki's had written in a late November article entitled, "Inbox: What is the plan for right field in 2011?", that Werth and his new rep were, "...believed [to be] seeking something similar to the seven-year, $120 million contract Matt Holliday scored last winter." The Phillies, MLB.com's Mr. Zolecki wrote, were willing to go three or maybe four years but no more. CSNPhilly.com writer Jim Salisbury, in an article entitled, "Werth leaves Phillies for division rival Washington", said the Phillies offered a three-year deal with an option for a fourth, with, "The average annual value of the Phillies’ offer," according to Mr. Salisbury's source, "about $16 million."
A 1997 O's 1st Round pick, who was traded to the Toronto Blue Jays in 2000 for then 26-year-old left-handed reliever John Bale and then sent to the LA Dodgers in 2004 for another 26-year-old pitcher, one-time Tigers' prospect Jason Frasor, Werth signed with Philadelphia in December of 2006 after he'd missed the entire '06 season with wrist injuries which required arthroscopic surgery. Werth posted a .298/.404/.459 with eleven doubles and eight HR's in his first 94 games for Philadelphia in 2007. In his time with Philadelphia, Werth posted a combined .280/.380/.506 slash line with 99 doubles, 95 HR's and 300 RBI's in 4 seasons. Last year, Werth collected an NL-leading 46 doubles, 27 HR's and 85 RBI's in 156 games for the Phillies, finishing the season at +5.0 WAR, playing RF with a 985 fld%, 4 errors and a -2.9 UZR/150. Bill James' projections have the soon-to-be 32-year old outfielder putting up a .275/.375/.493 slash line with a .335 BABIP, 34 doubles, 28 HR's and 91 RBI's next season. Did Werth deserve $126M? An average of $18M a year for seven years?
D.C. GM Mike Rizzo described Werth as, "a two-way player, a guy who excels offensively, defensively, baserunning and exhibits five tools," during the outfielder's introductory press conference, and, "as of today," Mr. Rizzo continued, "I think we have him penciled in to hit in the middle of the lineup and to play right field." But $18M per? Rizzo refused to apologize when asked about the criticism he'd heard. During an interview Wednesday afternoon on the Sirius/XM MLB Network Radio show "Inside Pitch" with Jim Bowden and Casey Stern, Scott Boras was asked about the deal he got for his client and the criticism that followed, with the former D.C. GM Mr. Bowden first saying, "Werth, I don't even want to go there. I just can't believe you pulled that off."
"Well, I think the point about market place," Mr. Boras explained, "is that when you go back historically, I can probably give you five signings from clubs that have taken players who have rooted themselves in the game as late bloomers. Players who have body types and certainly a physical platform that allows their chronological age to be viewed differently than their physicality as an athlete. So, that part I think is not as much the issue, but the other dynamic I think is, is that when we have players that are receiving contracts that performance-wise their track record isn't as advanced, remember also that we have a number of players who have advanced track records, particularly in pitchers, where they're signing and they pitch six, seven years, that they go out and sign contracts for another six or seven years based upon that past performance, but in reality, what is occurring?
"What is occurring is what I call the 'acquisition cost.' For every player that has extreme performance and extreme demand in the market place, there always is a quotient that goes not only to the value of the player on a year by year basis, but there's going to the value of an 'acquisition cost' that a club incurred in making sure that they beat their competitors to get that player. Cause if there is only three or four or five of them, and say you have one of the top three or four or five outfielders in major league baseball and that outfielder has the market to choose from, there's always going to be a percentage of acquisition cost that's going to be incurred in landing the player.
"So, in doing that, and evaluating that, you have to say, 'Is that player going to provide something to the franchise in addition to his performance?' And I think this is where we look at major free agent signings, particularly with franchises like Washington, that in addition to the performance the player brings, which would probably be 23 to 25 HR's, 90, 95 RBI's, in addition to that, we have someone now that allows Bryce Harper's arrival in the major leagues to be something that is more a function of his performance rather than a need to make sure the fanbase knows that we're taking the next step. We also know that from the standpoint of attracting free agent pitchers, or attracting a closer, or attracting any other free agents, that we have an ownership that is now embedded in the market place as someone who is a destination that they know the ownership is committed...
"So, in addition to growing for the player's performance, the brand in Washington is now a different brand. It is now an acknowledged brand. Their fans know it. Other players know it. And it provides a brand value to the franchise that did not exist prior to Jayson Werth signing."
Oh, this guy's good. The signing didn't necessarily help with the pitchers this year, but it might in the future. Adam LaRoche did mention the Werth signing when he decided on joining the Nats...but still, seven years? $126 million?
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GM Mr. Bowden first saying, "Werth, I don't even want to go there. I just can't believe you pulled that off."
Perhaps if Werth were overweight and diabetic Bowden would have thought it was a better deal.
Blogging about D.C. Baseball since April '04. Penn State alum, so I blog about it too. Also partial to the Washington Capitals and the rest of the D.C. teams, plus the New York Yankees and Yale football. @doubleuefwhy
thank you
I had exactly the same thought. Given his spectacular mismanagement, it should have been “I can’t believe that someone other than me pulled the trigger on that deal.”
He prefers to give money to people like Guzman
Who were allergic to walks and applauded ground balls as he watched them go by due to his lack of range.
Bowden has zero credibility in these parts.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
"We"
Ugh, is Boras really using “we”?
we’ll have the highest payroll in baseball by the time we finish signing all of his players.
You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!
Highest payroll
Long way to go before this becomes an issue.
that was not meant to be taken literally
but more about that fact that having Boras as an ally is not a sweet position to be in. Sure he represents a large number of the best players of baseball, but he is also known as the most ruthless and cunning agent in baseball, demanding outrageous sums (enter Werth pun).
I don’t want the Nats having an larger of a relationship with him than “WE” have to.
You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!
Good point
I didn’t pick up on that right away. The Boras influence doesn’t bother me but so much. Yeah, he’s expensive but I think that Rizzo knows that he ultimately wants young players regardless of their agents as the foundation of his team. The bigger concern with Boras isn’t the free agents its that Espinosa, Harper, and Strasburg are all Boras clients. Will we be able to have foundation guys that stay with the franchise for the long haul? Or are these guys counting the days until they get the big payday on the open marketplace. Extremely unlikely that these guys will be taking Zimmerman like deals to buy out their arbitration years as well.
Of course, the Phillies probably have solved the problem of having Boras client by getting enough depth that one client doesn’t stop the show. How influenced are the Phillies by Boras clients?
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
I guess it all depends on how they go and mature. As well as how the franchise goes. If Nats park is packed out, and we’re winning titles like the Braves then it might be something that is largely irrelevant as we can pay for their big pays days and keep guys here, or change them over for new upcoming young talent. In any event its such a long time away it probably isnt worth thinking about.
Ian Desmond is my hero!
Not my money so...
I’m just excited to see Werth in RF this season. A huge improvement, I hope.
by Slaentbjorn on Feb 3, 2011 10:54 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Not my money so...
I’m just excited to see Werth in RF this season. A huge improvement, I hope.
by Slaentbjorn on Feb 3, 2011 10:54 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I maintain it will end up one of the worst contracts in the history of the game
and all the spin Boras wants to put on it isn’t going to change my opinion.
Werth has never been the best player on his own team, and he’s getting paid like he’s one of the top half-dozen players in the game.
Werth is a very good player, and he may retain that title for a coupl emore years. but paying him $24 million (back-loaded contract) when he’s 39 years old is crippling.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
"Nobody’s got a monopoly on good writing, or the facts. If you can come up with one or the other or (ideally) both, you’re in the club." --Rob Neyer, Feb. 2, 2011
by Dave at District Sports Page on Feb 3, 2011 11:18 AM EST reply actions
Dave you know a lot and I love reading (and listening-Primesports etc) but...
I kind of liken this contract to a poker ante. You got to put something in the pot to play the game. Rizzo hasn’t been able to convince any top end talent to come here and I figure he and the Lerners are tried of it. He whipped out the big stick - good ole money. Frankly it doesn’t take a dummy to see we grossly over paid and the structure of the contract seems insane, but the Lerner’s are spashing the pot early with the contract in the hopes of better times to come in the future. Thus, the big back ladened crappy contract. This isn’t about Jayson Werth it’s about dollars making sense today for PR, league and player respect or self-respect proposes. If they had signed 3 or 4 players to this type of contract that would have been a disaster for the team in 2015-2017. The contracts penned since Werth have all been reasonable. You know more about the letter of the law than I do for certain, but as someone who’s had to (shlept) sell his wares in public (as a musician) the cost for doing so in the beginning can seem insane. In the entertainment industry, it’s the cost of doing business, period…
Bernie, I don't disagree there's a cost of doing business...
But my opinion is that it’s vastly overblown in the media how much of it exists. It takes two elements to become a “destination” for free agents: money and winning.
Obviously, the Nats have just one part of that equation right now. Whether Werth helps to get them to the second part is debatable. The core of the Nats franchise, the players that could comprise the core of the first truly good Nats team (Desmond, Espinosa, Strasburg, Zimmermann, Ramos, Flores, Norris, Harper), are still 2-3 years away from being fully formed MLB players.
At that point, all those players will be in their early to mid 20’s. Ryan Zimmerman will be in his prime (and a very expensive free agent).
But Jayson Werth will be in his mid-30s, at a point in his career when players decline and break down. Hopefully, Werth’s decline will be slow and gradual. But if history is any indication, he’ll be a shell of the player that “earned” his just-signed contract or worse, he’ll be the Nats version of Albert Belle, Mo Vaughn or Richie Sexson.
Will Werth help this team be better the next couple of seasons? Perhaps. Will he be here when the Nats finally make the playoffs. I’ll bet the under on that. And it’s not simply because I’m the voice of gloom and doom (a mantel I wear proudly). I’m looking at this realistically.
Realistically, the Nats don’t have a shot at making the playoffs for the next 2-3 years. They just don’t have the pitching talent. Period. I’m sorry to be so “negative” on the 3rd day of February.
Rizzo said at Werth’s press conference that Werth’s “best years are ahead of him.” But players just don’t get better as they get older, unless they’re getting help from somewhere (see: Bonds, Barry and Clemens, Roger.)
The other point, and this is a big one, is if the contract wasn’t bad enough, it includes a no-trade clause. So even if they wanted to get out of it at some point, they can’t.
Sending the Lerner’s money is one thing. Spending it blindly is another. In 2-3 years, this type of signing would make perfect sense. An acquisition like werth is a “final piece”, not a building block. I remain of the opinion that Jayson Werth is not the type of player to “bet the bank” on. Mike Rizzo, for better or worse, bet his job on Jayson Werth. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
"Nobody’s got a monopoly on good writing, or the facts. If you can come up with one or the other or (ideally) both, you’re in the club." --Rob Neyer, Feb. 2, 2011
by Dave at District Sports Page on Feb 3, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Correction: Rizzo didn't bet his job on the Werth contract
I can see several scenarios where there Werth contract doesn’t work out well for the Nats, but they are still successful enough through other means for Rizzo to remain firmly entrenched as the Nats’ GM.
But aren't the Nats in a situation where they have to win by 2013?
To me, Rizzo is betting his job on the Nats being competitive enough to raise the season ticket base by 2013 and to create a team that wins enough to retain Ryan Zimmerman. He’s also hemmed himself in by not signing Dunn, a guy that Zimmerman likes who may have been at a more reasonable contract in favor of Werth, a guy that Zimmerman may not know as well for a longer term deal with greater dollars that will drive up Zimmerman’s price as well.
Lastly, he’s gambling on the Nats to be close to maximizing the DC market to be able to raise payroll by 2013 or so. Yes, it’s certainly very risky. On the other hand, the Lerners were loyal to a fault with Bowden who was clearly incompetent. If Rizzo shows real progress, they will likely be loyal to him as well.
Certainly Werth will be one of the most scrutinized guys next year.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
That's kinda my point, but the opposite
The Nats aren’t going to start winning until 2013 at the earliest.
Every single move Rizzo has made his entire tenure with the Nats has indicated that he truly believes that too.
Except one.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
"Nobody’s got a monopoly on good writing, or the facts. If you can come up with one or the other or (ideally) both, you’re in the club." --Rob Neyer, Feb. 2, 2011
by Dave at District Sports Page on Feb 3, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Are you saying that the Werth move is the one exception?
He seems to be going all in for 2013. Not sure that’s what I would be doing, but that’s what he seems to be doing. I am going to trust the guy at this point because I’ve liked his ability to show progress in other areas.
Some here might say not resigning Dunn is the exception. I don’t doubt that Dunn would be more productive than Adam LaRoche the next two years.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
yes, the Werth move is the one exception
there’s as much chance Werth is a shell of himself, if not completly broken down, in 2013 as there is in him maintaining his production, much less getting better, as Rizzo so boasted during the press conference.
All the moves he’s made are building moves, except the Werth signing (Dunn walking and taking the picks, Hammer for two young, MLB-ready players, etc.). It would have been perfectly reasonable if Rizzo made a signing like this for the 2013 season.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
"Nobody’s got a monopoly on good writing, or the facts. If you can come up with one or the other or (ideally) both, you’re in the club." --Rob Neyer, Feb. 2, 2011
by Dave at District Sports Page on Feb 3, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Do you have an alternative corner outfielder for 2013?
Or even better an alternative center fielder?
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
Meant free agent acquisition more than anything else. I don’t think our farm will progress enough this year where we’re willing to move but so many prospects next year either. Year after that with another good draft maybe.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
I'm not going to project on possible free agent corner outfielders for 2013.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
"Nobody’s got a monopoly on good writing, or the facts. If you can come up with one or the other or (ideally) both, you’re in the club." --Rob Neyer, Feb. 2, 2011
by Dave at District Sports Page on Feb 3, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
I understand completely
I’m just hoping that’s where there analysis is superior to mine. As a fan who often stops once research gets laborious, I’m hoping Rizzo knows more than me. But I have to admit that with the information we have presently it looks like they wanted to make a big splash and follow it up with other big splashes to boost the payroll this year and came up short. I think he was trying to move the window to 2012-2013 and not just 2013 with the acquisiton of another front line start and a first base option that he felt would have been better than LaRoche. That’s where he came up short and where it kind of leaves us blowing in the wind with Werth.
We’ll certainly see what we have, and I hope as a fan that we’re wrong. Like I say below, I spent time last football offseason going into mental contortions saying that “Mike Shanahan knows what he has in Donovan McNabb better than I do. I’ll trust them” only to have my misgivings confirmed.
I’m hoping that doesn’t happen here because there appears to be somewhat better ownership and a superior full-time GM at the tiller.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
Offensively yes, but on defense...
Defensively the errors were becoming demoralizing. I don’t think you build a true winner with an insecure first baseman. Apparently the rest of the National League felt the same since Dunn winds up signing with an AL team.
LaRoach gives us an above average defender at first which makes the whole infield better. I don’t think we can minimize the psychological affect on the team if and when they become a top tier defensive team.
And offensively, I like Werth’s production with guys on base.
All depends on results...
If during the life of the Werth contract the Nats win three divisions and make a Series appearance – even if Werth turns out to be the 3rd best player on the team – then I think we would be obliged to view it a success.
Why? Because it’s a break-through contract, one that lets players and agents know the Nationals have decided to be a contending team in the NL East. Without it there’s no way the Nats are able to attract the final pieces to build a-big stage winner.
How else could Rizzo and the Learners announce their intentions? And though he had to overpay, I do believe Mike Rizzo believes Werth is a centerpiece type of player, enough to stake a good portion of his reputation on it.
Nothing that I can disagree with here
I am a fan, and I’m going to have a positive spin on this. Rizzo and the Lerners are gambling quite a bit on their farm to start absorbing more costs with quality guys who are affordable a la the Giants by the back end of this contract or are really going to be Phillies big market. I will say that the Werth contract removes any credibility I have when I criticize the Howard contract for the Phillies.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
Let's just pretend for a second,
that Werth plays very well for a few years, above average for a couple of years, then below average for two. Let’s just say that his value in current dollars goes like
$22M, $20M, $20M, $15M, $13M, $8M, $5M.
Then total value for his services will be $103M, but because they back-loaded it, the actual value of the contract is $124.6M (using a 5% ROI on alternative investments). That’s really close to the actual value paid, with not wildly exaggerated performance projections.
I understand you are mainly concerned that they will be vastly overpaying for his services at the end of the contract ($21M per year according to BBR). Without a doubt, they will be doing that. However, I have to assume that the Lerners are smart enough about their money to realize that the money they save this year by vastly UNDERPAYING him is not just “found money” that they can blow on another yacht and forget about the future.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
by RobBobS on Feb 3, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow. Tough crowd.
I thought this was some of my better stuff… and no comments…?
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
Of course, that ROI can be tricky
I understand from one of my friends who is a Mets fan that the problem the Mets owners have is that when they signed some of their larger contracts (Santana, Delgado, Beltran, etc) they put aside money (present value) in accounts for just this purpose – to even out their cashflow and to generate part of the contract cost. Problem: they got cute, and the accounts were with Bernie Madoff, who then made off with the money. Now they are trying to find a buyer for a minority stake in the team to generate the cash to make payroll, but people with that kind of bankroll don’t want to fork over that much money for a seat on the bus, they want to drive. So they may have to sell the team.
Yeah, Madoff did a number on the Mets, that's for sure
Of course, even if the Lerners stash the money in their mattresses, they’d still only be overpaying ~$20M over the life of the contract. Bad, but nowhere near the worst contract in the history of baseball.
Rob
"Valentines day is really the day pitchers and catchers report, and those are truly words of love.." -- David Huzzard
Mets fans would probably relish the departure of the Wilpons
Risking a team in NYC going bankrupt takes some serious doing. Now that the Knicks are doing better they get to battle with the Islanders and Nets for greatest NYC joke.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
I'm more likely to comment back when I disagree or wish to modify!
This one was pretty lock solid to me.
+1
There you go.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
The Lerners can afford it
so it doesn’t bother me. It’s a lot of money but if the Nats are successful, then they’ll be bringing in more revenue. Part of the money is really going toward convincing other free agents to sign in D.C. in 2012-2013. Hopefully those FAs will be the final pieces of the puzzle, in combination with players like Zimmerman, Werth, Harper, Desmond, Strasburg, Zimmermann, etc.
-------------------------------------------------
"Save it. I'm goin' for a smoothie."
The Washington Nationals, the team of the 2010s!
Right
The inherent problem though is that 24 million to Werth in a few years will have to be coupled by similar #‘s for Ryan Zimmerman who is actually 4th in the league in WAR, behind only Pujols, Hamilton, and Votto….(that is sick for the record). I want to pay Zimm his $$$, but 50 million to two players will be expensive. 100 Million would be an expensive payroll, now I don’t know what the Lerner’s can afford, but now you are looking at let’s say 50 million to pay for, Strasburg/Harper who will likely be better of signing extensions to avoid arbitration, these mystical Free Agents (who will probably be represented by Boras), as well Ian Desmond, Storen, 4 Starting Pitchers….crypes.
You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!
There's more danger of Strasburg and Harper burdening the payroll than Zim and Werth
The big $$ contract for Zim is likely to be on the low steps of the payroll ladder until after Werth’s contract has run its course.
Jayson Werth isn't even a fraction of the player Andruw Jones was
For a full decade Andruw Jones was one of the best all around players in baseball.
But you’re right in one thing: he got old very fast. He also got hurt. And it all happened right around the same age that Werth is at now.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
"Nobody’s got a monopoly on good writing, or the facts. If you can come up with one or the other or (ideally) both, you’re in the club." --Rob Neyer, Feb. 2, 2011
by Dave at District Sports Page on Feb 3, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
You couldn't be more wrong.
Werth’s wOBA (adjusted OBP that gives hits more weight than walks… since they’re better) last year was higher than anything Jones EVER did. It seems you’ve based your criticism of Werth on the fact that he’s not famous. You say he wasn’t the best player on his team… but last year he was. He’s been a 5 WAR player for the last three years, and his WAR would have been higher if he hadn’t had to play as much CF (which destroyed his fielding metrics).
You mentioned Belle, Vaughn and Sexton as age examples, yet all three of those guys were closer to Adam Dunn body-wise, than Werth. Werth’s body has been spared almost two entire years of playing due to injuries, so I – and Rizzo – believe he will age slower. Of course Rizzo goes one step further and says Werth will continue to improve, which the graph I’ve linked also supports. Fangraphs says that 1 WAR is worth $5 mil, so Werth is a solid $15m a year player, that we gave $18m a year. The backend of the contract will a burden, but the front end is a big bargain, so you have to figure that in. Once the big money years come due, we will have had 5 years of Strasburg and Harper and I (and the FO imo) expect us to be a $100m a year payroll team at that point.
As for having no chance at the post season for a 2-3 more years – wow. We all know we don’t have enough TOTR pitching, but we saw Rizzo try like hell (and almost succeed) this winter. I don’t understand why you’re so quick to assume he won’t be more successful next winter when the team is hopefully not coming off 90 loses. I believe the team is about 5 games under .500 now. Add Strasburg and Harper and I believe the playoffs are a realistic 2012 goal.
The only problem with this thinking is the position difference.
Andruw Jones was one of the best centerfielders in the game during the period I believe. Werth plays right field. I think the better comparison is to think about what would happen if you shifted Werth to centerfield. He’d probably be significantly worse as a centerfielder. For the Nats this year, that would have been a huge upgrade. We’d have been able to boot Nyjer to the bench with a power bat and could work on easier to find outfielders on the corners.
I think that what Dave is trying to say is that power bats in Centerfielders are extremely valuable.
I think Rizzo looked at his system and didn’t see anything in the corner outfield and felt that this was one of the positions that he could upgrade through free agency. Where I do support the “Werth is better than Jones” is that we are trusting that Rizzo’s character and scouting analysis matters here. Didn’t Andruw Jones start eating and overswinging his way to the bench? Did LA distract him from focusing on his game once he got his payday?
A key thing with this acquisition in Rizzo’s mind is likely to be his belief in Werth’s character, training habits, and body type as a potential to stave off some of the potentials of age. Now whether he can scout players late in their careers as well as he can scout young talent remains to be seem. That seems to be the real question under examination. I think it’s a question that we ultimately don’t know with the limited data we have and I’m willing to admit that I don’t know and wait and see.
That said, there are some kind of eerie parallels with the Werth signing and the Mcnabb signing.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
FWIW Andruw Jones by his own admissions wasn't in the shape he should have been in to play..
… at an elite level for a long time. Werth is a gym rat. In either case, we’re judging apples and oranges here. Oh yea! Jones also played in a period where body enhancers ran amuck. Unscientifically, I’d say Werth shaving his beard alone gives him 1 or 2 extra stolen bases… ;) hahahahah maybe!
In reply to rfk428:
Thanks for telling me how wrong I am. I try to respect everyone’s opinion on here and not be rude when offering a differing opinion.
I don’t have a problem with Jayson Werth, the player. He’s a fine player and I understand how good a player he’s been. For the last three years, playing his home games in the band box known as Citizen’s Bank Park, and hitting fifth or sixth in a very potent lineup. Before that, he was an often-injured nobody.
My problem is not with Werth, it’s with his contract. Rizzo gave Werth one of the top half-dozen highest free agent contracts in history. He’s paying a very good player like he’s one of the elite in the game, at a point in time when the Nats simply don’t have the pitching to be contenders. And it’s just as likely he’ll be done being a very good player by the time the Nats core is ready to contend than continue his current production into his mid-to-late 30s..
Andruw Jones totalled 55.3 WAR, an average of 6.14 WAR per year (acc’d to Baseball-Reference) over a nine year period playing CF everyday while with Atlanta, so let’s not get confused here. Werth started 53 games in CF in four years with the Phillies.
You state that Werth’s been a “5 WAR player for the last three years”, when that’s simply false. In 2008 it was 4.2, 2009 it was 3.2 and last season was 5.2, his only season where he’s earned that much. So before telling someone they “Couldn’t be more wrong”, you may want to have your basic facts correct.
Citing Werth’s injury history as evidence that he’ll get better as he gets older is faulty at best.
The graph you linked to does nothing to show that Werth will continue his performance, it simply shows his numbers side-by-side with Jones and illustrated my point in beautiful color-line detail how short a time Werth has been a quality player.
The side-by side you didn’t do is here: comparing Werth to Howard to Utley which proves my point exactly: Werth has not discernably been the best hitter on his own team the last few years and definitely the less valuable player over the course of their careers, yet he’s now being paid as one of the top players in the entire game.
The Fangraphs post you reference but didn’t cite to is here, where they conclude the same thing I do (my emphasis):
While [Werth’s contract] is significantly more than he was originally expected to get, it is not the drastic overpay that it appears to be on the surface. That’s all market rate analysis, however. There is a larger question to be explored, and that is whether a team in the Nationals position should actually be paying market rate for a premier free agent when it appears that the rest of their roster won’t be capable of helping him make the playoffs for at least a couple of years.
You are perfectly welcome to believe this team is “about 5 games under .500 now.” I’d love to see your math on how you come to that projection. You’re also welcome to believe that “Add Strasburg and Harper and I believe the playoffs are a realistic 2012 goal.” It’s good to have hope as a fan. I don’t discount the possibility that either could happen.
But it’s just your opinion. Just like it’s my opinion that Werth’s contract could end up being one of the worst baseball contracts in history.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
"Nobody’s got a monopoly on good writing, or the facts. If you can come up with one or the other or (ideally) both, you’re in the club." --Rob Neyer, Feb. 2, 2011
by Dave at District Sports Page on Feb 3, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
It's always a possibility
None of us have any idea what 2012 will look like. 2011 we have a decent feel for, the Nats will win between 60 and 90 games and finish between 3rd and 5th in the NL east. 2012 is a mystery though, part because a lot of the current team is young and developing, part because Strasburg and Harper are complete unknowns when it comes to 2012, and partly because the Lerners are REALLY REALLY rich, and if they think the Nats are close, who’s to say they won’t bring in a CF and a starting pitcher that will compete with Strasburg for the top of the rotation.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
There are a bunch of moving parts for sure
Personally, the fan in me can’t go but so much doom and gloom. I can be prepared for the pessimistic situation, but I believe my expectations are realistic. Expect a win loss record comparable to last year for 2011, expect the team to flirt with .500 in 2012. Hopefully that .500 finish is enough to get to 3rd place in the division. Expect a wildcard contender in 2013.
The biggest thing is that they don’t do whatever they do piecemeal. If you’re going to spend, spend until the problems are addressed. If you are going to be patient, ruthlessly build through youth and be prepared to be able to ignore the din of a local and national media that will consistently call you a joke.
Ultimately, I’m acknowledging that they are not doing what I would have done. I would build through youth and keep fan expectations realistic while doing everything I could to improve the customer service experience. (Better metro egress, more escalators, better in-game stuff, better responsiveness to season ticket holders to go from satisfactory to excellent, and other things that we could discuss here.) I think that the Caps have done this appropriately to their business model. But they have really made no big free agent acquisitions that I can recall during their current run post-Jagr. The Nats at some point would need to be opportunistic in acquiring a big name free agent. In other words, maybe that’s not the defensive guy that fits all of a desirable set of criteria. But it’s at a position of market inefficiency and you slightly overpay at that position.
But I’m not a GM, I don’t know the personalities of the players involved like Werth and Dunn and Willingham or their medical reports, I don’t have scouting reports for players and I have zero idea of what the maximum payroll would be.
I’m content to say that I don’t know very much, I’m trying to learn more, and I hope that I’ll do my best to be humble about what I think I know.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
That sounds about right to me, but things like the Metro aren’t under team control, we’ll have to wait for the season to see if the fan experience has improved.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
Once upon a time they used to have frequent and reliable buses to RFK stadium for short term parking to give people choices beyond Metro. A direct to Stadium/Armory/RFK lot would be a nice option for days that you know there’s going to be a big crowd, like oh, Stephen Strasburg’s return from the DL for example. Those kind of things establish goodwill and can build goodwill for an organization that seems to need a healthy amount of it.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
As a purchase of a multi-game package, I got a call from the Nationals' office a couple of weeks ago
Bringing back the RFK shuttle was a specific comment that I made.
They just need to do that for big games.
And publicize it well. That was a move I did to maybe my first game or two at the park. The Circulator could hit some of that alternative traffic but the routes are not tailored towards baseball games. I don’t wait through Capital Hill traffic through trying to get to Union Station so it doesn’t make sense. I looked like a rube when I tried that move to avoid the rush post-Strasburg when I went with my dad. Thought I was being tricky and ended up in a packed bus quagmire. That game experience is something you really don’t want to repeat. That was my dad’s only trip to Nationals Park this year. He’s out of market, and you want to create a flawless game experience for those tourists and transients who are going to hit bigger games on occasional trips through DC.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
Come now...it's no Vernon Wells...
In fact, the Wells trade gives me hope that we might find a sucker of Minaya/Reagins proportions…
Ian Desmond is my hero!
Werth has a no-trade clause.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
"Nobody’s got a monopoly on good writing, or the facts. If you can come up with one or the other or (ideally) both, you’re in the club." --Rob Neyer, Feb. 2, 2011
by Dave at District Sports Page on Feb 3, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't Oswalt's no-trade reduce the value of his trade?
Didn’t Greinke’s limited no-trade reduce the value of his contract. Ultimately, it looks like we might have given the Royals a better package but they couldn’t take it because Greinke controlled the deals, not the Royals.
I believe that Kasten would never have approved a no-trade clause or a deal the length of Werth’s. Another example of the Rizzo stamp on the club.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
why would he?
he doesn’t have anything to gain. if he wants to play the rest of his career here, not uproot his family with young children, he has no reason to. he signed here knowing how bad the team is right now. what’s to say he’d consider waiving his NTC to go to a contender in the future? that’s the only reason he’d waive it, right? to play for a contender? well, the Nats aren’t contenders right now, and he decided the money was more important.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
"Nobody’s got a monopoly on good writing, or the facts. If you can come up with one or the other or (ideally) both, you’re in the club." --Rob Neyer, Feb. 2, 2011
by Dave at District Sports Page on Feb 3, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
I think we’ve got no idea whether Werth would or wouldnt waive his NTC in the future. Maybe the trade would have better promise of more playing time? Maybe at that age he would want to play rather than sit on a bench… and the contender argument is also true. Maybe he would want to play on the West Coast because he believes the Earth is flat and its better over there… Ive got no idea. It’s pure speculation. The point (if there was one) is that no trades put it back on the player and while not ideal, he could be moved at some point over the next 7. Although I would figure that would need to be sooner rather than later (I would imagine it would be more likely that he’s moved in 2-3 years but under what circumstances, no idea).
Ian Desmond is my hero!
The Greinke case speaks to the danger of No Trades.
I’d hope that he wouldn’t want to stay where he’s not wanted and where he’s not contributing. But you want to be able to control the destination so that you can bet the return on prospects that have value and meet team needs. You are far less likely to get that if you have to dump him to wherever he accepts.
Rizzo’s gambling on this one in a move that I strongly doubt that Kasten would have made. We’ll see how it works out.
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
Now that is a horrible thought right there
John Carlson: A real American hero taking names and settling scores.
Souldrummer: A regular guy trying to join Adam Dunn, Jordan Zimmermann, and Garrett Mock as one of RobBobS' guys.
Alfonso Soriano
Poor Alfonso Soriano he will only be making $18 mill when he is 38. However, he will make $21 mill more in his career than Jayson Werth, based on the current contracts.

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