2012 Rotation, co-opted and revisited
No numbers here; this is more of a "feel" piece [Riggleman points at gut]. Meatface wrote an earlier fanpost (now closed) that he thought the 2012 rotation would consist of Stephen Strasburg, Jordan Zimmermann, John Lannan, Chien-Ming Wang, and Tom Gorzelanny. Since that time, Gorzelanny and his varying cheez has moved to the bullpen. Except for the fact he takes a lo-o-ng time to warm up, and a predeliction for the occasional homer, he's held up as a long man. He's also stated he (surprise!) prefers starting, which means he may well choose to sign elsewhere in the off-season.
After today's game, Davey Johnson stated he felt Wang had won a spot for next year. Wang told Bill Ladson that he wanted to come back and pitch for Washington next year. If you accept both of these as true and that they will come to pass, what does that mean for 2012?
Detwiler, Peacock, Milone, and anyone else you care to bring up/in are thus fighting for the fifth starter position (and the right to caddy Strasburg's spot). Assuming no starters are traded, the rotation would consist of two power right-handers (one in Year 2 of TJS recovery, one supposedly off the leash), left-hand sinker/eye-bleeder, right-hand sinker/cross your fingers, and a fill-in-the-blank. Has Detwiler shown enough to win a spot? Will Peacock or Milone pass him by, as Detwiler has Balestar, or is Keith Law correct that neither has the stuff to be more than middle relief in the majors? Will Uncle Mike want Yu to join the Nats, or does he sign one of the middling pool of starters? What about the rest of the staff?
The bullpen (again, assuming no trades) starts with Storen and Clippard, and presumably includes Mattheus and Burnett as the middle relievers. That leaves 3-4 spots open for two long relievers (Davey's preference), a LOOGY, and perhaps one other jack-of-all-trades/mop-up man, from the losers for the fifth spot, Rodriguez (out of options, thanks to Oakland), Livo, Balestar, Severino, and what-have-you. That's also assuming that Coffey takes his David-Hasselhoff sprint from the pen elsewhere.
As one of my college professors used to say, discuss.
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#1: Tom Gorzelanny is under team control through 2013
and I don’t see him moving back into the rotation given the depth available.
He's not moving back.............
- starter free agent over Wang over Detwiller over Peacock over Livo over “Tommy” ………….
Look control or no control Gorzolanny and Lafraud are the mistakes that we need to walk away from……………
I don't think Gorz was a mistake
He gave us some solid innings this year and even though he doesn’t want to be a longman, he seems to be pretty good at it. That’s most likely where he’ll be next year and there’s not much wrong with that.
Whats the frequency, Kenneth?
#2: Wang would fill the "veteran" role that Rizzo and Davey seem to want on the team.
There’s no guarantee that in terms of performance he’d be better than Livo was this year, but I guess in theory his ceiling is a bit higher at this point, so there’s reason to hope. I’m sure he’d take another low dollar contract with big incentives like he did this year. He could end up being the #3, the #4 or the #5 depending on how Lannan et al perform, but should do better than Gorzelanny has as a starter. I like that he doesn’t seem to get rattled easily, the veteran quality. I expect to see him on the roster in the spring.
#3: Detwiler over Milone over Peacock
Detwiler has shown he can handle starting duties in an effective enough manner that fans aren’t reminded of Lannan (of last year, or even this May). He had one horrible outing against the Mets, but otherwise has been solid.
With Milone and Peacock we’re dealing with very small sample sizes — 15.2 IP and 6.1 IP. So far, Milone’s numbers are much stronger. His FIP is 3.46, his WHIP is 1.28 and his K/BB ratio is very much positive like one would expect from his AAA career, suggesting he’s handling the transition decently well.
The battle will not be won until the spring, but these last few starts will be crucial for Milone and Peacock to keep themselves in contention.
Mostly agree
But I like Peacock’s stuff much more than Milone’s. Milone seems way too much like a Lannan clone to me. Peacock can make batters look silly, which after all IS their job, right?
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
Agree..........
Lannen and Detwiller would both have to be moved before Milone gets a real shot……….
These guys should each get two more starts this season, here in Philly and then vs Atlanta/Florida. That should bring Milone up to 26 innings or so and Peacock up to 16 or so. By the off season I hope we have a good set of data that reflects what Peacock can do much better.
In AAA this year, both of these guys had good stuff. Milone was better, with a 9.69 K/BB ratio, a 3.22 ERA and 2.24 FIP. Peacock was still decent, with a 2.00 K/BB ratio, a 3.19 ERA and a 4.18 FIP.
So far, Milone has made the transition to the majors much better. He has a 3.00 K/BB ratio versus Peacock’s 0.50 K/BB, and he has kept people off base much more effectively. So far, Peacock has been about as effective at keeping batters off base as Henry Rodriguez. I expect much better of him. Milone by contrast trends closely to Mattheus and Gorzelanny in that regard so far. Peacock’s luck is going to run out soon if he continues to pitch as a strikeout pitcher without strikeouts. He has not consistently fooled anybody at the major league level yet.
Given their AAA histories and how they’ve handled the transition so far, I think Peacock’s dug himself a hole in the competition vs Milone.
A little OT
but if Purke’s shoulder truly is ok, i could see him taking over for Strasburg in September.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
Dreamers..............
Harper hitting .280 by June………….Rendon playing by August Danni who?……………Purke sure pitch him a few times in Septmeber…………
September.............Really...........
I expect to be in a pennant[wildcard] race next September…………
Thanks for the comments, dc Roach
I agree with you on all three points. I hadn’t realized Gorzelanny wasn’t on a 1-year deal(that’ll teach me to ass-u-me); he’ll fill one of Davey’s long-men roles unless he’s traded or (unlikely) DFA’d over the winter. The Wang-Marquis parallel was one of the things which prompted me to write this, and I promptly left it out of the post. As far as #3, Detwiler would be my choice as well; however, Peacock and Milone are the flavors of the month in some circles, so I think it will be another ST decision.
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
It's way, WAAAAY to early to figure out the rotation yet; too many variables
But finally they are good variables for the Nationals. Given that he’s been so good this year, and that Stras is on an innings limit, I’d have JZim start Opening Day. This may also let them line up Stras to pitch the home opener. :) Beyond that, it’s all a muddle. Consider:
1. The Nationals may trade from their positions of depth in the organization (pitcher, catcher, middle infield) for a CF/leadoff type. Potential targets are Grady Sizemore (if the Indians don’t pick up his option), Denard Span and Michael Bourn (in the unlikely event that the Braves don’t offer him arbitration). Both Sizemore and Span are risks since they have to prove they are healthy (add a kudo from me to Rizzo for walking away from the Span deal before the deadline). If Werth can play CF you could make the leadoff a corner OF, but he’d better play defense (Morse + Werth + marginal defense =/= SPAD!).
2. If the Nationals decide they really need thump in their lineup, they may go RobBob and go all-in for Prince Fielder. Think Adam Dunn, but 5 years younger. It will probably take more than 5 years to get him though. If the Nats do sign Fielder, add Morse to the trade chip file unless the Nationals can get a top defensive CF to cover up for Morse’s lack of range.
3. Having left handed starters in a division with lefty-heavy teams in Philly and Atlanta is a good thing, which argues for keeping at least 1 and possibly 2 of the Lannan/Detwiler/Milone troika. Forget Sabathia, he’s likely to opt out because he knows the Yankees have to pay whatever it takes to keep him – but that means the Yankees are keeping him. Buerhle is a possibility, but he’s been shaky lately and there is a general assumption that he’s staying in Chicago, going to his hometown in St. Louis, or retiring. C.J. Wilson is a possibility, but has his own risks – would you be getting the guy from 2010-2011, or would you get the guy with the undistinguished career up until then? This could be a classic “buy high” scenario for someone.
4. Whither Wang? He’s saying all the right things about wanting to stay, but that probably just gets the Nats a right of first refusal. How much would you really want to invest in a guy as a “veteran innings eater” when he’s only had 8-10 starts over 3 seasons?
5. How ready are Harper, Rendon and Purke? They are the big stories to watch for the Nationals in the AFL. None are likely to start 2012 in DC, however. Not for Super 2 reasons, because they all are already on ML contracts. But how close (or far away) they look ripples through other decisions.
6. The ultimate wild card for the rotation is Yu Darvish. He’s young (just turned 25), throws hard, and is dominating Nippon baseball like no one ever has. Unlike signing a free agent, there’s no draft pick cost – just money. And it’s not clear how much money either. There’s a lot of hype, but the record of Japanese pitchers in MLB is checkered at best.
So Rizzo & the Nats will navigate through the possibilities. Remember for any trade, the other team has to think that they are getting good value. It amuses me when I see posts about getting Brett Gardner from the Yankees or Felix Hernandez from the Mariners for a pile of mediocre players and unproven prospects. Not going to happen. The same is true for free agents – every other team in MLB will be looking at the same market. That’s why so many teams have been locking down their starters.
So my take is – play through the offseason variables, bring the rest to camp and let them fight it out there, let the quality rise to the top. The team will probably need at least 8-10 starters over the season anyway.
Of course, it’s fun to talk about :D
Cot's doesn't show Rendon's contract
Is it a long-term one? That’s the real key for Super-2 status. If he’s on a three-year deal then Super-2 will potentially kick in if he comes up next year. But that’s unlikely anyway (at least until the All-Star break) seeing as he’ll have logged none of the apparently prerequisite “bus league time”.
You are correct: it’s early to talk about it, and to some extent these sorts of discussions don’t lead to much new information, but it’s good food for thought.
Rob
-- In baseball we trust.
Expect Detwiler/Peacock/Milone to fight for #5, I think Peacock but it's up in the air
It looks like Wang will be back for 2012, since both sides seemingly want him to be a National. So now it doesn’t make a lot of sense for the Nats to sign a back-end vet, since a) they aren’t likely to make the playoffs next year, so it makes more sense to test out a youngin’ and b) they have that in Wang already. This doesn’t mean the Nats won’t splurge on a top-end vet, but that would have to be a long-term deal to be worth it. Let’s assume for now that they won’t.
So now it’s Milone, Peacock, or Detwiler for #5. Detwiler has been pretty good, but I’m not sure he has the upside of the other two – it seems (at least to me, anyway) that he’s shown his potential. I’d rather see him operating out of the pen as a lefty LR, especially since he has better numbers in the pen and struggles when facing batters for the third time. Though Gorzelanny is another lefty LR – soooo….trade Gorzelanny (unless Detwiler really earns that starting spot).
Gonna be a long winter around the campfire, ain't it boyz?
…possibilities for speculation are endless.
"On my tombstone just write, 'The sorest loser that ever lived.'" - Earl Weaver





























