Signing Fielder Means the End of Morse's time in DC
by Natsbat4W on Jan 17, 2012 6:42 AM EST
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PrintMany people who desperately want the Nationals to sign Fielder don's seem to realize that it will come at the expense of Michael Morse. If Fielder comes to the nations capital, there will be no spot for Morse on the 2013 roster; next offseason Rizzo is expected to sign a leadoff CF, move Werth to LF, Haper to RIght, and Fielder will be entrenched a 1st. Morse will literally have no postion to play.
While many people have looked at signing Prince as closing the door to opportunities, signing him actually opens the door. Think about how many trade options we now would have. Morse would bring a lot in trade value. Plus, we wouldn't be liable if he has a slump year. Trade him while his value is high!
Face it, Morse is not a part of the Nationals plans. We might as well get some value out of him while we can.
Possible trades:
Morse for Gardner (NY needs DH)
Morse for Gerrardo Parra or Chris Young (Arizona's got outfield depth and need cheap first base help)
Probably many more teams would want Morse!!!
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This is sad but true
Which is why I go back and forth about signing Fielder. A 3, 4, 5 of Zimm, Fielder, Morse could be the best in the NL but an outfield of Morse, Harper, Werth could look pretty bad. I really wish there was a way to keep Morse but you are right, they literally have nowhere to put him. You are also right in saying we could get great value for Morse. I am not sure who you target in a trade but it would be nice to get another pitcher to solidfy our 1-4 for the forseeable future and also an outfield bat and maybe a prospect. Brett Gardner would be nice but doesn’t he play LF? Harper will have that locked down and I doubt Gardner would want to be a 4th outfielder, right?
I think our two “core” guys right now that could possibly be traded are Morse and Desmond, which sucks because they are two of my favorite players. This is a big year for Desi, if he can put it all together then that would be great. Otherwise, Rendon is probably going to be coming up fast. Desi might be moved (but for what? all our positions will seem to be set?).
Regardless, it will be great to actually have options. Just really wish there was a way to keep Zimm, Fielder, Morse all in the same lineup.
Gardner only plays LF because the Yankees have Granderson in CF
Gardner may well be a better CF than Granderson. One reason that his defensive metrics were off the charts and Granderson’s were merely average last year is that Gardner is basically given license to get get anything he can reach (a privilege usually accorded the CF).
Agreed that Morse is guaranteed to stick through 2012 pretty much regardless.
I have argued
that Morse can and should be traded after this season. The argument being that I suspect that a reasonable (i.e. quality) center fielder could be found via the free agent market to replace him then, and two years of solid production from Morse would make him much more valuable next off season (I imagine most teams are wary that Morse may be a one-hit wonder, as it were). If a Victorino or the like can be signed in December, then Rizzo would be able to wheel and deal for either a front-line starter, or can reload with a couple of top prospects, or pretty much pick and choose what he gets for Morse, who will still be arbitration eligible. In the mean time, while I don’t think the 2012 outfield of Morse/Werth/Harper will be terrific defensively, I don’t think they’ll be terrible either(*) — they’ll be close to league average I’d say, but well above league average offensively.
That said, I would not mind a trade for a CF this season that replaces much of Morse’s offensive contribution and also makes the defense better. In this case I do think Gardner fits the bill, but I really doubt the Yankees are in a Gardner-trading mood (note: this entire discussion is predicated on Fielder being signed).
(*) Complete aside, the words “terrific” and “terrible” rather obviously have the same root, and at one time meant more or less the same thing. So I could have just stated a redundancy, if one reads this sentence in the context of the nineteenth century
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
I agree with your premise
but must disagree with most of your trade scenarios. The last thing the Yankees need is a full-time DH, even with the trade of Montero for Pineda. They have Andruw Jones, and are rumored for Carlos Pena to platoon with him in 2011. Beyond that, they need to keep space open for A-Rod, Tex, and Jeter, either as “rest” or, in the case of A-Rod, as a permanent spot in 2013 and beyond. As for Arizona, they seem happy with Goldschmidt.
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
Agreed on the Yankee plans for the DH slot
They are also looking to get under the luxury tax threshold in two years, and trading one of their few really cost-effective players (Gardner) would make that much more difficult.
That would still be more than their budget amount
According to MLBTR, the Yankees are only budgeting $1-2 million for a DH slot.
As we’ve seen before, Rizzo wants to get a center fielder but it isn’t definite that he will pull the trigger. Tell Werth to suck it up and play CF if thats what it comes to.
by RossingtonCollins on Jan 17, 2012 11:30 AM EST reply actions
Morse for McCutchen?
"I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you."
-Leslie Nielsen, Airplane
Not a chance.
The Pirates don’t go that way.
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
Agreed. So, why not sweeten the pot?
If Morse continues to hit, trade Harper for McCutchen.
Unthinkable? Not really. We need a CF more than we need another corner OF.
That’s if and only if we sign Prince, obviously. But really, in a lineup with Fielder, Morse, Werth, Zimmerman, Ramos, and Espinosa, how much more valuable would Harper really be than McCutchen? Not to mention that McCutchen is a proven commodity at this point, whereas Harper is a prospect.
I’m not even saying we should definitely do this, but I hope they’re at least considering it.
That is interesting..
Nats and Pirates seem to have developed a good relationship having made some trades in the past. McCutchen probably won’t resign with the Pirates as they have treated him like dirt. McCutchen is a little overrated offensively but possibly the best defensive centerfielder in the game right now that provides a solid bat.
Montee Ball for Heisman 2012
McCutcheon is an all-star level player
Harper has the potential to be a generational talent. As tempted as I am by the prospect of having McCutcheon at the top of the lineup, I doubt that I would make that trade.
Still worth considering.
He’s not in the HoF yet.
What would Pitt have to throw in for you to make that deal then? And would they even go for it, if it meant giving up more than McCutchen?
Well, for starters, Pittsburgh probably doesn't go for it
As a home-grown all-star McCutcheon has more value to Pittsburgh than he does to other teams, at least from a fan standpoint. So it’s academic. But OTOH, January really cries out for academic baseball debates. If the Pirates would offer both McCutcheon and Gerrit Cole, I think I do that deal.
The Pirates have a number of good CF prospects
We might be able to trade Morse for Starling Marte. Robbie Grossman is another option though a bit young. They might also be interested in trading Gorkys Hernandez and lower level prospect for him.
Truthfully, however, Morse likely doesn’t make sense for the Pirates, as they are probably looking more at 2013-2014 for contention. Perhaps the Rangers would be a better fit. They have Julio Bourbon and Leonys Martin.
#extendZim
Homey don't play that game
[bops on head with sand-filled sock]
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
Not sure what that means.
But it’s funny.
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
Homey the Clown, from "In Living Color"
the Wayans Brothers’ sketch comedy show (launching pad of David Alan Grier & Jim Carrey)
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
.365, .365, .364
Those are McCutchen’s OBP numbers for each season of his career. Stick him at the front of a much, much, much better lineup than he has in Pittsburgh, smack dab during his prime years, and watch him score runs.
Not that Harper wouldn’t be capable of scoring runs, but still.
in reply to NatBadger at 10:56AM PST...
I always mess up replies to the last post on the page…
Much as I like McCutchen
I don’t really see him as a 1.000+ OPS guy. That’s what I see in Harper.
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
by RobBobS on Jan 17, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd be willing to bet that Harper puts up a 40 HR, 40 double season before he turns 23.
You just don’t trade that kind of power.
Aim for the head baby Jesus
And his OBP will probably be much better than McCutchen's.
He will provide much more value to our team than McCutchen, even when considering our painfully bad leadoff situation.
Honestly, I would rather have Harper with Upton playing leadoff(even though he is best at #2) than Morse and McCutchen. Bourne would be even better, but I would not trade Harper.
Skins rule
Rizzo would never do it
Think about if Harper becomes, lets not say a HoFer but is a perennial all-star. Rizzo would look really bad…
Lemme get this straight: Sign Fielder, then trade hell outa Moarse, and possibly Harper too...
“Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” – Luke 23:34
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
by Whupass on Jan 17, 2012 5:52 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Not both.
If we sign Fielder, we don’t have room long-term for Morse. Therefore he will likely be traded once we settle the outfield situation.
I’m simply proposing that we consider Harper tradeable, as a more valuable alternative to Morse, because as nice as his homers will be, we have a lot of pop already. We could really use a defensive CF and a good leadoff man, and there aren’t a lot of guys out there who meet both requirements.
This would be a great argument
Except Luke came in last in our Fantasy Baseball League pretty much every season.
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
Thou fool
Luke was an original HOFer, from back in the earlies. Do not eff with me on the Good Book.
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
Really? OK, how about this:
I’m pretty damn sure that when Jesus uttered those words above, he WASN’T thinking about the wisdom of trading a 30 year old poor-fielding slugger for a 28-year old slick fielding OBP-ish center-fielder type.
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
That's only because Jesus himself was manning CF
….and damned if he didn’t ever make a single error!
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
by ricksnats on Jan 18, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He hadda bad year
At his feet, they shot craps for his raiments, man. Fair to say he wasn’t thinking trading baseball cards – which is what this discussion sounds like.
[Sanctimoniously exits, stage right]
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
Morse vs. Werth
Who would be a better 2013 LF for the Nats: Morse or Werth? Obviously Werth will start over Morse because of his contract, but should he?
Trading Werth?
Think if we are most of his $$$, anyone would want to trade for him if he has a big year? An OF of Morse, CF TBD, and Harper could look nice.
Doubt anyone would want to trade for him though, answered my own question.
Maybe we could send Morse to Baltimore for Adam Jones and a prospect, hose them.
What about Morse and Desmond in a trade?
What you think about trading Morse and Desmond for a leadoff 2nd basemen (Espinosa could slide over to SS) or may be a SS. 2nd base is a much less competitive position and I think we could get a lot more offensive value in a trade for a 2nd basemen than a CF. What about Ian Kinsler? Do you think the Rangers would take Desmond and Morse for Kinsler (barring they don’t sign Fielder, and the Nats do)?
not a chance in hell would Texas make this trade
not one chance.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
"Nobody’s got a monopoly on good writing, or the facts. If you can come up with one or the other or (ideally) both, you’re in the club." --Rob Neyer, Feb. 2, 2011
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jan 18, 2012 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
I hope not
Because I think the Nats would lose big on such a deal.
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
Why?
We would be giving up 4 years of Desmond, and two of Morse for two years of Kinsler. Desmond has been about 1WAR, and Morse about 3WAR. Kinsler is at about 5 WAR. So you are looking at trading 10WAR over four years for 10WAR over two years.
On the con side, Kinsler is about twice as expensive, trading two players for one increases the risk of bombing out as Kinsler could get injured. There is always the possibilty that Desmond will break out, while it seems Kinsler is at his peak.
Without studying the trade more deeply, I can say where I would stand. What am I missing?
#extendZim
Kinsler could and has been injured
and we really have no idea what Desmond and Morse have to offer. I’m willing to wager that Desmond is significantly better than a 1 WAR guy.
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
B.J. Upton
Tampa Bay Rays needs a 1b and the Nats have been interested in B.J. Upton. So 2 years of Morse for 1 year of B.J. Upton?
Think they'd take LaRoche instead?
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
No way
Adams LaRoche performance would not make up for the loss of BJ Upton’s performance. LaRoche salary is too high compared with his performance. Nat would have to eat lots of his salary and throw in other players.
Morse could make up for the performance of BJ Upton. He is bargain compared with his performance. He has two year of below free agent salary.
Just to round out this thread, Michael Morse is completely OK with the Nats picking up Fielder
As he said in an interview last November about the prospect of the Nationals picking up Fielder:
“Oh my gosh! Are you kidding me? I mean, I’ll catch. I’ll pitch. Whatever it is. If we can get our hands on Prince. That is huge. Especially in our division. And especially with the lineup we have. We have [Ryan] Zimmerman. We have Werth. We have a lot of power righties and to put him in there? He’s a monster. He’s a game changer at any time of the game.”
except Morse can't catch or pitch.
sorry, too easy.
Your voice of doom and gloom. Read more at natsnewsnetwork.blogspot.com
"Nobody’s got a monopoly on good writing, or the facts. If you can come up with one or the other or (ideally) both, you’re in the club." --Rob Neyer, Feb. 2, 2011
by Dave at District Sports Page on Jan 19, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, simplistic response
Check that, I’m not sorry. You miss the point. Protected by powerhouse Fielder next to, or near him in the same lineup, Morse’s production goes up. Same for Zimm – also Werth and Ramos. All our good, middle-order hitters would see a lot more fastballs in the strike-zone.
I’ve never been on the “Sign Prince” bandwagon, and I still am not, but this is certainly one of the ponderables that lends support. Morse meant that he would do anything to hit behind, or ahead of Fielder – and well he might.
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
Kind of a gratuitous response, isn't it?
Obviously Morse is expressing his enthusiasm at the idea of having a bat like Prince’s in the lineup. It’s the kind of positive attitude that makes many of us out here really like the kid. And while Morse won’t be a catcher or pitcher, he’ll still be a heck of a hitter – our team’s MVP last year, lest you have forgotten.
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
I forget nothing
Morse has played six of the nine positions on the field, and his comment, “I’ll pitch, I’ll catch,” was certainly a humorous bank shot, which sailed over your head. Most humor eludes you, I have noticed. You take yourself too seriously.
Suppose Morse had said, “I’d give my left t*t to hit behind Fielder”? Would you condescendingly pointed out that he isn’t equipped with any? Possibly.
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
And you, no doubt,
would say that he does.
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
Um.....
Do you realize I was responding to Dave at District Sports Page, and not you, Whup? My feeling was that Dave’s comment that Morse can’t catch or pitch was a bit too snarky.
But just to be clear on the record, I’m now wondering whether your reply to my comment was perhaps intended as a reply to Dave as well.
Ain’t trying to start no fights, but would be nice to know if we’ve got a problem here!
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
Reply fail, rick
My bad. I too intended a response to Dave. You’ll note from the hour of my post that I was likely non compos mentis (that there is Latin), but that’s an explanation, not an excuse. A thousand pardons.
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
Grazie, Whup
For me anyway, by that hour of the night, if I’m still up, usually it’s the wine talking (and reading)!
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!
How about Harper in center.....
I think that Harper will work out this season. He is capable of playing decent center field and he supplies even more power to the lineup. I think Morse should be traded next year for a center fielder. I hate to give up Morse; he is a power hitter and will do well this season. The only thing is, you can’t keep everyone on the roster…..Fielder would be awesome in the Nat’s lineup; he would make this team a contender. I feel Zim and Werth will be much better this year. The Nats need to get this deal done with Fielder!
Harper in center from day 1 here (or day 15 or whatever the cutoff is for his team control years etc.) is asking a lot of him. Skipping a level, making yet another position change, accepting a huge increase in defensive responsibility (especially if you assume that the CF will be tasked with compensating somewhat for Morse’s defense in left)… plenty of reasons why Werth in CF is much more likely for this season at least. It would certainly be an interesting development if Harper turned out to be useful there long term though.
This.
There was talk of exposing Harper to all 3 OF positions in the minors, but I don’t think he had more than a couple innings (if that) in center last year. Remember he’s had less than two years’ (one in JC, one in MiLB) experience in the OF at all. Asking him to learn CF on the fly at the ML level at the same time he’s learning his way around the majors is too much to ask. At this point, I think Werth, while not optimal, is a better CF option for 2011.
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
Harper played 20 games in CF in Hagerstown
Although the sample size is small, his fielding percentage (.943) and range factor were both lowest in CF. He didn’t play CF at all in Harrisburg or the AFL, so I think they’re trying to limit the number of things on Harper’s plate for now to speed his development.
IF (and it’s a pretty big if) Harper does well this year at the ML level, the Nationals might consider moving him to CF in 2013. I think that such a move is unlikely before 2014, if at all (by then the Nationals may well have picked up or developed another CF).
thanks for the fix
I hadn’t realized it was that many games in CF; however, the point remains.
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
Fuhgettaboutit, Harper will never make a center-fielder, not ever
Guy came up as a catcher. He’s having problems enough learning LF and RF as it is, and he will not play center-field, period. Never. Possibly he has the arm, but not the wheels, nor the instincts. It’s another world out there.
He was put on this earth to hit, not roam the outfield, run bases, or nothing else. He’s a hitter, and he’s a good one. Damn good. WC good. He’ll end up in LF, the second least-demanding position after 1B.
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
Oh yeah, our FOF (first-baseman of the future) is Mike Moarse
or so it would seem
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
Actually I'd bet that he ends up in RF
Kid has a GUN. Just this side of Ankiel.
But not nearly as accurate
Closer to Vlad-Daddy.
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
The Arizona trade would not work solely
because Goldschmit is starting there now. I don’t know if they Yankees would party with Gardener for what would most likely be a year of Morse. I do think that many teams would want him as their starting first basemen or even left fielder because he is a big boy that can hit for average and power. I think a deal with the Rays could be made.
Morse, Desmond for Upton, (low level position prospect or Reid Brignac), and maybe a bullpen pitcher.
If they even considered this
the Rays would probably reject including anyone with Upton. I can’t see it, anyway, from their perspective: they already have mediocre SSs on the roster (Brignac, Rodriguez), signed Carlos Pena to play 1B in 2012, and have 1B prospects close enough to ready not to worry about 2013.
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
Are you lost?
To get to the CWS blog, take a left at Wisconsin Av. At #702, go in. Ask for Mr. Fish.
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
Thank God and Greyhound
life goes on – p&c in 24 and a wake-up
"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford
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