Does Lannan deserve "credit" for some of his unearned runs?
I am forever grateful to the posters on this site for tempering what was building into a fanatical devotion to sabermetrics. What I’ve come to now realize is that to truly honor the spirit of these new ideas and metrics one can’t let a critique of a certain group think become just a different sort of unchallenged conventional wisdom. So I am happy, then, that I was taken to task for simplistically claiming that Lannan is trash because his already unimpressive body of work was due to regress to even more terrible lows since, well, I couldn’t challenge the almighty FIP, now could I? Now I realize that there are just certain pitchers who should not be expected to close the gap between what they did and what FIP tells you should have been expected to happen, and Lannan seems quite clearly to be one of them.
That said, my oldest of old school analytical tools -- that is, my eyes -- told me more than once at the ballpark that he was worse than his ERA, seeing his opponents crush ball after ball when he was on the mound. And now I think I’ve found a reason to explain that while he isn’t worse because FIP says so, it is because UERA does… that is, unearned run average.
I started with another old-timer tool, my gut, to start to believe that he does, indeed, have a "skill" in creating errors, what with the many ways his pitches allow hitters to really square up: low velocity and poor movement combining to create a toxic influence on his most-used pitch, his pitching to contact creating more opportunities for a mistake, and his inability to balance any of that out by having a better than average ability to limit walks all came to mind. But I am still very much a numbers guy, so I turned to all qualifying starting pitchers from 2008-2011 to see if there mightn’t be connections to those assumptions amongst his UER creating brethren.
Ok, so there are 151 qualifying pitchers over that time span. I looked, then, for the 15 worst UERA hurlers (or the worst decile) and then looked to see if they appeared more than average as the worst 10% at generating outside swings, keeping hitters from connecting on pitches in the zone, strikeout percentage, swinging strike percentages, ground ball percentage, and strikeout-to-walk ratio. Right, so our man Lannan is 15th in UERA so he gets on the list. And the members of this group happen to appear in the worst decile on the lists of the aforementioned metrics an average of over 4 times per list… or over four times as much as average, which is pretty damn significant. And Lannan is both in the first decile on three of the lists and at least within spitting distance of each of the others: 20th worst in O-sw%, 16th in Z-con %, 18th in Sw-str%, 13th in GB%, 11th in K%, and a whopping 4th in K/BB… all out of 151 starting pitchers. That, too, is quite eye opening.
In other words, he and the other high-UERA pitchers get it hit really hard and often at the fielders defending behind him (who, by the way, aren’t the reason behind the results: the Nats fielders gave up, on average, no more than .06 runs more than average per game, and for the others on the top-15 UERA list their average defense was even better), making it more likely that they muff the putout attempt. Now, I had to do all of this by hand, so I only calculated the players who were likely to post a bad score and therefore don’t know what an average UERA is -- which I know needs to be done, but this is just a start -- but FYI Lannan’s was 0.54 which, again, I can at least say is worse than 90% of his peers. Whether or not this first stab will stand up under further scrutiny I don’t know, but I think it at least provides a basis for some good discussion…
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Apologies about the formatting
I couldn’t seem to get it to do anything but show as one big block of text. It looked right where I was typing it, but not in the preview or here. SORRY!
by William.Hatheway on Jan 28, 2012 8:18 PM EST reply actions
You can edit it...
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
I can't get it to let me click in the body of the main view box
which was the whole problem to begin with, i think. I’ll try another computer on Monday…
by William.Hatheway on Jan 28, 2012 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you very much
I was using someone else’s laptop which has IE…
by William.Hatheway on Jan 29, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
And The Hate Goes On.....
…..Or, at least that is what I assumed to be the message from that “Kryptos II” wall of gibberish.
I said I have come to realize he is a worthy MLBer
so no, don’t see “hate”
and i also apologized for the “wall of gibberish” in advance
any thoughtful critique is still welcome
by William.Hatheway on Jan 29, 2012 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Behold Kryptos!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryptos

“Kryptos is an encrypted sculpture by American artist Jim Sanborn located on the grounds of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in Langley, Virginia. Since its dedication on November 3, 1990, there has been much speculation about the meaning of the encrypted messages it bears. Of the four messages, three have been solved, with the fourth remaining one of the most famous unsolved codes in the world. The sculpture continues to provide a diversion for cryptanalysts, both amateur and professional, who are attempting to decrypt the final section”.
"...I don't want to go watch American League baseball." -Lance Berkman....
I wanna watch the "... tape-measure-testing, laser-throwing, eyeblack-oozing baseball cyborg."
by cat daddy3000 on Jan 29, 2012 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
I am, I have CIA friends
I was really peeved at myself for not figuring it out; I think it was more the “Lannan hate” thing, but my apologies
by William.Hatheway on Jan 29, 2012 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
I found this interesting, though neither surprising nor dispositive
If you create a cohort of P2C pitchers by eliminating the P2K pitchers, it’s not surprising that these pitchers will give up more errors (and thus more opportunities for “unearned” runs). The ball is in play more often. It also enables Lannan to get a higher GIDP rate than your average bear. Both of these things make intuitive sense, so it’s not surprising to see the numbers reflect that.
One question: how do you define “qualifying pitcher.” Is that a pitcher who has a certain number of IP in one season, or a certain number of IP over the four seasons you looked at? Or some other criteria?
Groundball pitchers Vs Unearned Runs
I did a web search on pitcher and unearn Runs. I found a artilce A Look at Unearned Runs by Pitcher Type that talks about this. It has a nice graph showing unearned runs as a percentage of total runs vs groundballs-to-flyballs ratio. It based on 2005 data. It also looks at the top and bottom 20 pitchers as percent of unearned runs. There is relationship but since certain amount of randomness. It makes sense.
Interesting link
though the non-GB components are pretty interesting, too: Suppan is about average in GB% but off the charts in the other five metrics, for example. (Oh, and man he wasn’t very good of late, btw! I didn’t realize how much so, in fact…)
Another tidbit: 3 of these guys were 1-2-3 in babip (Parra, Niese, and Morton) so that seems to make sense, but then not so much for the others, so so much for that…
by William.Hatheway on Jan 29, 2012 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
qualifying was an average number of innings over the four seasons
I just set it at “qualifying” instead of a number of IP.
good point about double plays. I’ll have to look at that.
by William.Hatheway on Jan 29, 2012 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Traditional stats use more than ERA.
His 2011 WHIP of 1.462 and wining percentage of 43.5% shows he is not as good has his 3.7 ERA. I’m not saying saber metrics is not helpful, just only looking at ERA and saying traditional stats are wrong is too simple. An article," The Effect of Unearned Runs on Pitchers" on the subject of WHIP, ERA, Losses and unearned runs. It shows that WHIP, ERA, and losses have some significance in explaining the variations in unearned runs, but that there are other factors influencing it as well..
lannan has always laughed in the face of WHIP
I’m not pro- or against-Lannan but his job is run prevention. Baserunners do not equal runs. They often lead to them but lannan is a jam-getter-outer
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion man
his lob% is better than average
but just barely…
by William.Hatheway on Jan 30, 2012 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
but according to the masn commercial, that's because hes so good at getting double plays
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion man
Which pitcher is better one with a 3.7 or 3.83 ERA in 2011?
The pitcher with the 3.7 ERA is10-13 with a 1.462 WHIP is Lannan. The pitcher with the 3.83 is 16-6 with a 1.2 WHIP is Zack Greinke. The Nats were willing to give up a number of prospects for hm and give him a large multiyear extension. Ok I don’t want to reopen the trade for Greinke discussion. However, he is a better pitcher than Lannan. I don’t hate Lannan. I’m not saying they should get rid of him. I am saying looking only at ERA is not enough.
Agree that Lannan has one of the highest WHIP compare to his ERA. He is not as bad as many pitcher with a similar WHIP.
Oh yes Geinke was
By virtually any measure this side of ERA (WHIP 1.200 to 1.462; K/9 10.5 to 5.2; BB/9 2.4 to 3.7; FIP 2.98 to 4.28; xFIP 2.56 to 4.24; fWAR 3.9 to 1.3; bWAR 1.7 to 0.9; etc) Greinke had a better year than Lannan last season. It’s really not close. Greinke is even a better hitter (.143/.192/.204 to .088/.133/.140). And it’s not just last year – Grienke’s career OPS is .444 to Lannan’s .277.
I’m not a Lannan hater, but let’s not confuse him with Greinke, even based on 2011 production.
You and your "facts".
Lannan laughs at your facts.
Rob
--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds
Stop trying to confuse the discussion with facts!
Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"
You must have very keen eyes...
to notice the difference between a 3.70 ERA pitcher and a 3.85 ERA pitcher. However, I am going to guess that actually, you don’t like Lannan for some gut reason or you didn’t like him because you were part of the legions of stat guys that said Lannan’s ERA is going to skyrocket one year so it balances with his FIP. Now, you’re trying to rationalize your hate with a new set of data.
I started my investigation on the theory that you were correct and John Lannan had a terrible UERA, but I was curious what the possible impact of this UERA really was. At first it seems like a large impact. After all, Lannan gave 14 URs in 2011, which if all earned would have put up an ERA 4.40, not good at all. However, every pitcher gives up some unearned runs, but as you say it is difficult to find exact statistics and I’m a bit lazy. However, you can find out the MLB team average for unearned runs in the 2011 season (60) and the innings pitched (1451). By dividing these two we get a picture of the average rate of UR per inning (.04135). Using Lannan’s 162 game average from Baseball reference, we have 11 unearned runs over 199 IP or a rate of .05527. The difference between Lannan’s rate and the MLB average is .01392. So, over the course of the 184.2 innings Lannan threw in 2011, you would get an additional 2.77008 runs. Adding those runs to his 76 ER, we get 78.77008 runs, which divided by 184.2 then multiplying by 9, gives you an ERA of 3.84873 rounded to 3.85. I’m not sure where the standard deviations in ERA are, but I’m pretty sure this isn’t the kind of difference that eyeballs spot.
Now, then there are plenty of reasons why you would quibble with my math. I didn’t care at all about significant digits; I used sloppy averages; I was nursing a hang over; I don’t agree with you conclusion. Whatever you like. However, I don’t think that this is a truly significant stat.
#extendZim
all fair
except my gut as actually hatred. im really sick of this. how often do i have to say i dont hate him i want him on the team. and you dont need to be an eagle to see rockets hit off a pitcher. this is ridiculous, all this justifying hate crap. i simply wanted to see if a theory had any validity through a discussion because i dont know.
by William.Hatheway on Jan 29, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
So, I recreated some of your work to dig deeper
Using the same sample: qualified starting pitchers, 2008-2011 – a total of 151 pitchers
As you mentioned, Lannan has the 15th highest UERA in the group.
In that same group, Lannan ranked 80th in total run average (total run average, or ERA + UERA)
In total run average, he landed right between Andy Pettitte and Jeremy Guthrie. Gio Gonzalez was 61st. Buehrle 58th. Marquis 104th. Livo was 130th. Gorzelanny 139th.
The point is, that even if Lannan tends to give up more unearned runs than most pitchers, he still doesn’t allow more runs than most people, which makes him a decent pitcher.
Lannan also ranks 37th in that group for innings pitched. That is also valuable.
For reference purposes, the average UERA for the group is 0.354 and the most average pitcher in the group is Jason Hammel. The National with the lowest UERA on the list is Tom Gorzelanny with 0.309. The pitcher with the UERA closest to Lannan’s is Wandy Rodriguez. His ERA over that period is 0.60 lower than Lannan’s. I can’t explain this stuff :)
thanks, very good point
that may be a dagger in whether or not this hurts his value. nice work, and thanks for using numbers to back things up
the only other thing is that my main point was not to bash Lannan but to wonder if we can isolate UER as deriving from a certain “skill-set”. Thoughts on what I said about that?
by William.Hatheway on Jan 29, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
no clue
After the ball hits the bat, the pitcher has very little control over how things turn out. Ground ball pitchers get hit more and have to rely on luck and defense. Should we fault them for trying to do their job? In the end, we have to judge them by the results of their work, and Lannan has steadily improved in that regard over the years. Even if he does not improve this year, the numbers suggest that barring injury, he should be able to post an ERA below 4.00 without too much problem.
There are a wide variety of different pitchers with different pitching styles near the bottom of the UERA list. I can’t see a way to definitively tackle that kind of question without a whole lot more data and a lot of effort. Short of that, I will sleep soundly with the knowledge that UERA does not define the pitcher.
but FOUR pitchers per category I used are in the top decile
that does suggest a pattern, since on average there should only be one out of a group of 15.
by William.Hatheway on Jan 29, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
there may be a pattern, but it is meaningless unless we can control for a multitude of other variables. Take Tim Wakefield – is it at all fair to compare him with everyone else on the same scale? There are enough different types of pitchers that the numbers with this kind of sample size would be totally useless. Why does one guy have a 4.84 ERA and the other a 4.00 and another a 3.40 ERA over the same timeframe with similarly horrid UERAs? They are each such different individuals that drawing predictive information out of a comparison would be a tenuous undertaking.
I imagine that what makes pitchers bad is having the ball hit a lot, and have it fall fair a lot. beyond that, it’s a jungle from where I’m looking
Maybe add a table.
Show the players and the numbers of the six things you listed in your posting
- generating outside swings
- keeping hitters from connecting on pitches in the zone
- strikeout percentage
- swinging strike percentages
- ground ball percentage
- strikeout-to-walk ratio
Glad you fixed the formatting. I think your point was lost because of it.
will do
you are right, I need tables, just I couldn’t figure out very basic formatting. so I’ll do that tomorrow.
by William.Hatheway on Jan 29, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions

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