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Who's Telling The Washington Nationals' Stephen Strasburg He's Reached His Limit?

WASHINGTON, DC - SEPTEMBER 17:  Stephen Strasburg #37 of the Washington Nationals pitches against the Florida Marlins at Nationals Park on September 17, 2011 in Washington, DC.  (Photo by Greg Fiume/Getty Images)

So say the Washington Nationals do sign Prince Fielder. [You don't actually have to say it out loud.] And say the Nationals -- buoyed by the addition of the big slugging first baseman to a lineup with a healthy Ryan Zimmerman, 2009-2011's Michael Morse (as opposed to 2000-2008 Morse), Jayson Werth (Philly-Werth) and eventually Bryce Harper -- are able to improve on 2011's 80 wins and put themselves in a position to battle for a Wild Card berth or a division title?

Davey Johnson, in the first of what are sure to be many bold pronouncements by the 68-year-old skipper, told reporters earlier this winter his goal in 2012 was, "A pennant. Winning the pennant. Winning the division. Winning the National League." Johnson admitted to reporters, "I couldn't have said that last Spring. I didn't think the talent was ready, but after being there and seeing the progress that some of the young players made, I think we definitely can contend and I would be sorely disappointed if we didn't do just that." So say the Washington Nationals live up to their manager's expectations, fight their way into contention, and Stephen Strasburg reaches his innings limit...

Star-divide

The Nationals have said nothing, publicly, about anything other than following the same plan they did with Jordan Zimmermann in 2011 when he reached his innings limit and then shut it down in August. "If we're lucky enough and improved enough to be playing meaningful games in September," D.C. GM Mike Rizzo told hosts Kevin Kennedy and Jim Duquette in an MLB Network Radio interview this past September, "and [Strasburg's] pitch limits are up, just like Jordan Zimmermann this year, he will be done. We'll sit with our plan and we'll stick to it."

Washington experimented with giving Zimmermann extra rest coming out of the All-Star Break last summer, but the right-hander struggled in the first two starts on that schedule. "Yeah, of course I wanted to pitch the whole season," Zimmermann said when asked about getting shut down early, "and maybe skipping a start here and there during the season I could've been able to pitch a whole season, but we tried that a couple times, and it seemed like every time I either skipped a start or had a longer rest I didn't pitch very well, so I think they wanted to keep me on a five-day rotation, and when I was able to pitch every fifth day I seemed to do a lot better."

The Nats' GM, in a conference call with reporters earlier this winter, said the team hadn't decided "in concrete" the number of innings the 23-year-old Strasburg will be held to in 2012, but he said he had, "... general parameters of what I think is something I would allow him to throw." Rizzo declined to share the math, explaining that, "... there's strategy that's employed in it and we don't want people to know our business, but we have a good idea of the parameters of where we want [Strasburg] to throw, and we'll adhere to those parameters. Like I said, it's nothing in concrete because we want to see how he comes to Spring Training, how he feels and how he develops throughout the season."

Determined as he is to compete with the elite of the NL East, Davey Johnson told reporters, "I'm going with the medical experts," when he was asked about how he'd handle the Nats' '09 no.1 overall pick. "Whatever they think is the best thing to do. I know that what I saw at the end of the year, I saw a very healthy Stephen Strasburg. He reminded me of a guy that didn't look like he'd ever been injured. There was no change in the delivery. Everything was free and fluid. The ball was leaping out of his hand, and he's going to be just a regular pitcher until we've got to shut him down. He's over the special treatment. Now I would handle him just like any other pitcher on my staff and when we feel like the arm has had enough we'll shut him down, just like with [Zimmermann]."

Even after trading two starters (Tom Milone and Brad Peacock) who were likely to pitch in the majors in 2012 in the four-for-two deal with the Oakland A's that landed Gio Gonzalez, Rizzo told reporters he thought he had the depth to make up for the fact that Strasburg would eventually be shut down. "'We feel that we have at least six or seven quality guys that we can call upon to start in the major leagues," the GM said, "We feel that we're about eight or nine deep as far as starting pitching depth in our organization, our system, so I think the Strasburg thing doesn't come into play that much for us now.'"

Barring any setbacks, hiccups, or Spring Training developments, the 2012 season will feature a top of the rotation in Stephen Strasburg, Gio Gonzalez and Jordan Zimmermann that Rizzo said recently, "... is in the realm of something that we've never had here before." Should the Nationals somehow work their way into contention, unless something changes, or they figure out some way to make it work, the Nationals will have to fight for their first postseason berth without their potential-future-ace.

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Postseaon Birth

“the Nationals will have to fight for their first postseason “birth” without their potential-future-ace."

Maybe this is why BB is such a popular sport.

by natsbaseball.com on Jan 5, 2012 7:49 AM EST reply actions  

"berth", thanks.

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Jan 5, 2012 10:36 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

And it's "postseaSon"...

heheheh.

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Jan 5, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

And I have said all winter............

there is no way STRAS is sat down during a serious playoff run……..

He needs a mysterious “Blister problem” DL stay at some point. Or a two week allstar vacation…………..

You don’t waste a PLAYOFF APPEARANCE for an entire city because you’re scared a pitcher can’t pitch 28 OCTOBER inningsmore then some made up number 175.

Its complete nonsense and have been the only poster here to predict……….It ain’t goiing to happen.

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 8:37 AM EST reply actions  

Risk........

You may use that term all you want……….I’ll use the term managment………Manage this kids innings to 150@September 1st not 175 @ september 1st………..

Its not that difficult.

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Gotta do better.............

then that…………..

Defeatest attitude.

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

there simply is risk

I understand that Nolan Ryan doesn’t buy the Verducci theory of adding no more than 30 innings a year, but Strasburg has never pitched that many innings. If he can pitch after a long break better than J Zimm I have no problem with skipping some starts so that he will be available into the playoffs. My priority would be health over him pitching in the playoffs.

by Hotpockets on Jan 5, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

That's an old-fashioned unmarried term there

the way you use it, refer to her as Miss Management.

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Jan 5, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

There are many ways that that sort of strategy could just easily backfire.

by PerryMason on Jan 5, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Well for starters, the strategy is just stupid.

games in september are worth the same as games in april. Secondly the last think you want to do to a guy coming off an injury is mess with his routine. Strasburg should and probably will start every 5th day until he reaches his innings limit.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Jan 5, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

You are really missing the point...........

Games in OCTOBER are more important then games in April.

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Postseason games are more important than April games

But the team has no chance if they don’t make the playoffs, and the Nationals most likely scenario for making the playoffs would be to have Strasburg pitch them into playoff contention by pitching every 5th day, then having his innings taken over by a TOR starter picked up at the trade deadline.

by d_c_guy on Jan 5, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

You are missing the point, too

You generally don’t get to play in October if you bury yourself in April. The Nats may be at a close-to-competitive level, but they won’t be if they sit Stras for any length of time in the regular season.

Rob

--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds

by RobBobS on Jan 5, 2012 12:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Rob.............

He’s only making 25 starts. The team should be able to overcome those missing starts for 3 weeks……….

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Which applies in September almost as much as in May, no (depends on strength of schedule and opponents being out of it/in a playoff push etc., obviously)? Especially if the fill-in in September is a TDL addition that’s better than your May addition.

by brs03 on Jan 5, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

25 starts on a regular schedule > 25 irregular starts

The team should set Stras up to win as many of his 25 (or however many) starts as possible by keeping him on a regular schedule. If they play cutesy game with DL trips or skipped starts, you risk him stinking on the starts when he comes back from his break because you messed with the routine. It happened to Zim(n), who was essentially replacement-level after the AS break last season thanks (in part) to such foolishness.

Mon pauvre vieux, les empires s'écroulent, les républiques s'effondrent et les imbéciles demeurent.

by Doghouse on Jan 5, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Pitchers aren't all the same though

Some do better on long rest.

You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!

by Bsullivan on Jan 5, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Quoting Patrick quoting Zimmermann
Washington experimented with giving Zimmermann extra rest coming out of the All-Star Break last summer, but the right-hander struggled in the first two starts on that schedule. “Yeah, of course I wanted to pitch the whole season,” Zimmermann said when asked about getting shut down early, “and maybe skipping a start here and there during the season I could’ve been able to pitch a whole season, but we tried that a couple times, and it seemed like every time I either skipped a start or had a longer rest I didn’t pitch very well, so I think they wanted to keep me on a five-day rotation, and when I was able to pitch every fifth day I seemed to do a lot better.”

Also, while the Dave Shoenfeld piece on Jack Morris isn’t about innings limits after TJS, it does address injuries due to workload.

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Jan 5, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

WHY???

Mess with JZIMM’s schedule in the first place………in 2011

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Be consistent*

You can’t argue for creatively spacing out Strasburg’s starts in 2012 and at the same time criticize when they (unsuccessfully) tried the same thing for Zimmermann in 2011.

*It’s only needless consistency to which Emerson referred.

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Jan 5, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Welcome back, Doghouse!

Bowden brought you back, didn’t he? :-)

by d_c_guy on Jan 5, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Remember my argument last year that all losses are hateful?

and equally hateful? This was precisely my point then, and it remains valid now. If we lose any game, even OD, I am furious, and it drives me nuts to hear the alibi, “Well, it’s early yet…” Screw that. If you lose enough games early, there will be no late – when October rolls around, you’ll be at home in front of your flat-screen.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Jan 5, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks all for supplying the fairly self evident answers to
?
?

by PerryMason on Jan 5, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I keep saying this should happen...

6 man SP rotation.

1) less (annual) innings for each starter
2) If a starter goes down, go to 5 man rotation for a while
3) each starter will have the gas to go an extra few outs per game, resting the bullpen
4) Strasburg goes the full season without resting at the end… no innings limit, but an extra day of rest in between starts.
5) Detwiler, Wang & Lannan all get to participate in the rotation.

by natexpo on Jan 5, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Won't happen, even though Ozzie tried it with the White Sox a couple of years ago

Too entrenched, doesn’t work well for sinker-ball pitchers (too strong), see the Zimmermann experience just below the break.

Besides, even if Davey did put it in place, he’d just add another pitcher (gotta have those two long relievers, lefty and righty matchups, setup and closer and mopup men), which further shortens the bench.

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Jan 5, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

midseason trade?

and its entirely possible they could deal a prospect for another starter at midseason, or even into August.

Ray Guilfoyle
www.faketeams.com
www.minorleagueball.com
www.mlbdailydish.com

by Ray Guilfoyle on Jan 5, 2012 8:39 AM EST reply actions  

the should be firmly in the buyers circuit this time around

Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion man

by TJL on Jan 5, 2012 8:45 AM EST up reply actions  

In 2011...........

there was zero chance at a playoff spot after May 1st…..Handling JZIMM’s mystical 175 innings was easy……………

This brain trust will have enough time to figure out how to “place STRAS at September 30th 170 innings”. Instead of just letting him pitch to that limit at august 30th. Its not that difficult.

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 8:54 AM EST reply actions  

It might be difficult. If you need to ride Stras hard in, say, June just to get you to September then there’s little you can do.

Would be a testament to the management if they can work it out though, no doubt.

by brs03 on Jan 5, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Olney has a nice write up

today about the pros and cons of the Nats signing Fielder with some opinions from AL and NL evaluators

Ray Guilfoyle
www.faketeams.com
www.minorleagueball.com
www.mlbdailydish.com

by Ray Guilfoyle on Jan 5, 2012 9:25 AM EST reply actions  

I can provide some excerpts if you need them

Ray Guilfoyle
www.faketeams.com
www.minorleagueball.com
www.mlbdailydish.com

by Ray Guilfoyle on Jan 5, 2012 9:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Somewhat interesting that he has Harper playing CF, not RF.

If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!

by ricksnats on Jan 5, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

and Werth

leading off

Ray Guilfoyle
www.faketeams.com
www.minorleagueball.com
www.mlbdailydish.com

by Ray Guilfoyle on Jan 5, 2012 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Riggs? Is that you?

Mon pauvre vieux, les empires s'écroulent, les républiques s'effondrent et les imbéciles demeurent.

by Doghouse on Jan 5, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Win Now Attitude

DJ has obviously convinced them to go for it this year. He has a shorter time horizon, and that is both a blessing and a curse—especially when it comes to the temptation to over work Stras in his first full year after TJ surgery.

by JamesFan on Jan 5, 2012 9:32 AM EST reply actions  

washingnats:
Great news, everybody. Bob Carpenter will be calling #Nats games for #MASN in 2012. #MLB

by dc Roach on Jan 5, 2012 10:25 AM EST reply actions  

is this angelos' revenge for the revenue changes?

Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion man

by TJL on Jan 5, 2012 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I know I'm in the extreme minority here with this group, but I'll say it anyway:

I like Carpenter, and am happy he’s going to get the chance to actually call games for a winner this year.

(there, I said it – be kind!)

If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!

by ricksnats on Jan 5, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

I like Carpenter as well. I was disappointed when it became evident that he might possibly not be back next season. Glad to hear that we will continue to see him. Thanks for the info.

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I like Carpenter and FP.

It’s great that we have talent on TV and radio that I can enjoy listening to.

by Dan Shields on Jan 5, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Carpenter might be a good person...

but I do not enjoy listening to him. My wife and I mute him and play the radio or watch in silence.

by Hotpockets on Jan 5, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Milquetoast Bob.

I would much rather have someone who appreciates the modern game. Neither he nor FP ever even express respect for the advanced statistical methods that are being used to help teams make informed decisions. If they did, they would know that a lot of the things teams used to focus on years ago (sacrificing, attempting steals, expanding the zone) have been shown to be unproductive or even counterproductive. Instead they (and especially Bob) are completely stuck in some eighties time warp, constantly arguing that the team needs to be more like the running Cardinals of his heyday.

Rob

--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds

by RobBobS on Jan 5, 2012 11:57 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Oh you “quantitative” types. Some of us ARE more “qualitative”. lol

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Well that explains why I don't mind him then

I don’t think I ever made it out of the eighties!

If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!

by ricksnats on Jan 5, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I must be..........

stuck in the 80s also……..I wanted the NATS to follow the Altanta building model. and have a team that looks like the 80s cardinals……….

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Huh?

I can’t think of anything worse than two guys calling a game and blathering on about math. I like Carpenter and FP without the boring stuff.

by JamesFan on Jan 5, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Its always been Heart............

these guys have made the game about math………….

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not about math

math just demonstrates that some things that were commonly held beliefs for a century are in fact not true, if you ignore the math you make the team worse.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Jan 5, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't Completely Agree.....

Ignore the math, and you “may” make the team worse, but I don’t agree that it is a sure thing. I do agree, however, that a “mixed-methods” approach is the best and most complete methodology.

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, if you constantly try to steal bases and sac bunt with non pitchers

it’s going to hurt the team, but that’s what managers did for years.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Jan 5, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmmmm……Riggleman ball? I guess it depends on who the non-pitcher hitter you are talking about. I will admit though, that it irked me to see a Dez, Espi, or some other batter bunting a runner over to 2nd with one or no outs. I’d rather risk the double play possibility, and see the batter swing.

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah and that's the thing

Carpenter not only condoned that sort of play, he encouraged it. Almost every time such a situation would crop up, you could count on Carp to discuss at the beginning of the AB how good a player is at sacrifice bunting, and how that translates somehow into an offensive weapon, despite the mountains of evidence that the mere attempt costs expected runs.

Rob

--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds

by RobBobS on Jan 5, 2012 3:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Meh…..you are correct, but I still like the guy and enjoy his broadcasts. Heck, when Pudge came up in those situations though, I often “prayed” that he would simply bunt the runner over! Otherwise, it was pretty much a guaranteed double play.

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I think regardless of who the play-by--play person is......

we are going to be stuck with someone who’s been informed in no uncertain terms that they are not there to criticize the team.

I think that’s the way it’s going to be with these Nats under this ownership, and if you had someone other than Carpenter, you’d be hearing the bright side of bunting in that situation from that other announcer.

If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!

by ricksnats on Jan 5, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I know some people have mentioned this...

but why not do a Roger Clemens and start him a bit later in the season? First start is June 1 or something?

You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!

by Bsullivan on Jan 5, 2012 11:14 AM EST reply actions  

might depend on what ST yields

if any two of wang, lannan and det can’t hack it, this option may not be possible.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion man

by TJL on Jan 5, 2012 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Bowden's Post

Actually makes sense with the African American Community. Hadn’t thought of that.

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/the-gms-office/post?id=3133

You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!

by Bsullivan on Jan 5, 2012 11:19 AM EST reply actions  

Though I cringe when Bowden says anything

You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!

by Bsullivan on Jan 5, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

I have the #1 comment in that thread, and since I wrote it I’ll republish it here since it’s behind the Insider wall at ESPN:

I largely agree with Bowden’s points here, which naturally causes me to immediately re-evaluate my assumptions. Suffice it to say that Bowden does not highlight that during the MLB and early Lerner years (2004-2009) Bowden was the team’s GM, with disastrous results (the team lost 205 games in 2008-9) that the team is only now recovering from. It wasn’t until the current GM took over the drafting and player acquisition that the team really started to position itself for its current run. Unless Bowden wants to take credit for creating the shambles that enabled the team to draft Bryce Harper and Steven Strasburg 1/1, it’s really disingenuous to refer to “a long-term plan” when there were really two: Bowden’s plan, revolving around impressive athletes (who were head cases or couldn’t play baseball) and former Reds players, failed miserably. The second “long term” plan is showing hopeful signs of actually working.

That said, for the right price and number of years, signing Fielder would make a lot of sense for the Nationals. Boras doesn’t care about that, though – he just wants to maximize dollars and let the team go hang. I suspect that the key is actually Yu Darvish. If the Rangers sign Darvish, Fielder probably lands in DC. If they don’t, then the Rangers (with their new TV deal in hand and a DH option to soften the later years of a contract) are in a better position to meet Boras’s demands

by d_c_guy on Jan 5, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I get the Bowden hate, somewhat.

But the fact of the matter is that the majority of the time in his tenure he was just a figurehead. He was given no resources to work with and a minor league system in shambles.
That he didn’t improve matters is understood, and not completely excused, but I’d dare say that Rizzo in such a situation would not have fared much better.

Rob

--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds

by RobBobS on Jan 5, 2012 12:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I just want to know if the person making the other comment on Bowden's post is getting his imagery from our gamethreads...

Or if someone else out there came up with the idea of Miss B’s Bowden punching bag on their own?

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Jan 5, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree…..plug in your best GM, and that person would not have fared much better.

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

The Bowden hatred............

is childish……….And the Kasten hatred is wrong………….

Rizzo picked STRAS and Harper………Wow Stevie Wonder did’nt see that coming.
Rizzo signed Jason Werth………..FOR 7 YEARS!!!
Rizzo panicked and signed LaFraud-a compete waste
Rizzo traded Two starting pitchers and a wonderful pitching prospect for one starter who’s is going to win four more games then LIVO alone would have.

Rizzo’s best deals seem to be the ones he does’nt make.

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

And Rizzo has still done more good for this team that Bowden and Kasten together.

Kasten didn’t do a damn thing for the Nationals, except fill the ballpark with obnoxious philly fans.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Jan 5, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Actually, I believe Kasten did a great deal in putting the pieces together to rebuild this franchise, beginning with the farm system, and building a fantastic front office. Yes, the whole Philly thing was a huge mistake, and I bet Stan would (and I think he did) admit that. However, Stan was a great acquisition for the Nats, and I think he did a great job in a tough situation. Actually, I still see some Kastenomics with this franchise; although, I don’t think Kasten would have made the Gio trade, or the Werth acquisition. However, I DO think Kasten would have signed off on Fielder…..i.e. Fred “Crime Dog” McGriff.

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

How much of that farm system stuff was Rizzo though? Also, the entire team was a public relations nightmare the entire time he was here, and that has to be his responsibility.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Jan 5, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Stan getting an “expansion team” would have been easier than what he inherited here in DC. This franchise had to be broken down before it could even be rebuilt….it was a mess. Public relations nightmare? I think it was Stan who brought in the whole “Red Carpet” stuff after the new ownership took over and hired him? While the team was still playing in RFK? I would also give Kasten for hiring……Rizzo, and yes, I think Rizzo did a lot of hard work restoring the Farm System, but I think it began with Kasten, and as I asked, didn’t Kasten hire Rizzo? I don’t hold him completely harmless though….I don’t know why he held on to Bowden.

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I could easily say the LaRoche hatred is childish, but hey

Rizzo has picked a lot more than Stras and Harper – anyone who follows the Nationals minor league system at all knows the improvement that has taken place over the past three years. Just look at how the system rankings have improved, whether from Law, Sickels or any other baseball analyst. And Strasburg hasn’t counted in those rankings for the past two years, because he’s not a “prospect,” he’s a “National.”

Rizzo traded four prospects for Gonzalez; it’s by no means clear that Peacock and Milone will be starting pitchers at the ML level. And even if you assume the four win distinction with Livo (and I love me some Livo, but there’s a reason that he hasn’t gotten even a minor league ST invite at this point), the trade was for four years of Gonzalez. Livo’s career may not have another four months.

The tale of the Werth trade hasn’t yet been fully written, although the early returns are not good.

And if you’re going to trash Rizzo for his trades, you have to tip your capps for Wilson Ramos.

by d_c_guy on Jan 5, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Ramos..........

I can’t take the Ramos deal away………..However RAMOS was very movable because he was blocked.

Trading for Gomes was pitiful.

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree Guy…..LaRoche gets way too much criticism. I say that, even though I did not necessarily support his signing…..I was fully in support of Morse being our 1B all of last season, and those of us who supported that theory were criticized pretty heavily this time last year. The Morse Bandwagon was pretty empty this time last year….funny how a good year will change all of that.

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

yup

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Jan 6, 2012 2:37 AM EST up reply actions  

The reason Rizzo would have done better than Bowden

anyone remember these names

Michael Burgess
Stephen King
Josh Smoker
Bill Rheinhart
Stephen Englund(sp?)
Smiley Gonzalez

Do I need to go on. Here is the guys that Rizzo got, most of them already better than anyone on the bowden list. I wont ever an Stras, Harp, or this years draft class. All of these guys were developed under Rizzo, if not draftd by him

Robbie Ray
A.J. Cole
Steve Lombardozzi
Danny Espinosa
Tom Milone
Tyler Moore
Drew Storen

Now to be fair, Bowden did get us Zimmerman, Desmond, and Lannan and Rizzo did draft Trevor Holder, and has had his share of failures. but overall Rizzo has done a better job finding the Lombardozzi’s of the world, and taking the Storen’s instead of the Smoker’s

MOAR SEVERINO!

by jeff550 on Jan 5, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Unacceptable..........

Kasten hatred is unaceptable to me. He Bowden and then Rizzo instituted the “Atlanta Braves” rebuilding that I have accepted and enjoyed since the team arrived.

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

+1……I fully agree.

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't hate Kasten, I just think that he is adept at taking (or being given) credit for other people's work

Whether Schuerholz in Atlanta or Rizzo here, Kasten’s “success” rides other people’s coattails. And in terms of the business side of the organization, he generated a team that couldn’t sell out playoff games in Atlanta and then came to DC and presided over what has been (charitably) a less than fully successful marketing effort. I don’t hate Kasten, I just think he’s incredibly overrated. That was true even before OD 2010.

by d_c_guy on Jan 5, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

the Atlanta Braves rebuilding happened at a time when the Braves

Had as much money as any in baseball except the Yankees, and Kasten wasnt all that involved with it. Kasten owes everyone in DC an apology for his poor marketing and his disrespect of DC fans.

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Jan 5, 2012 6:33 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

When Josh Smoker, Michael Burgess and Smiley Gonzalez were acquired, there was excitement. Hindsight is 20/20, but should the Nats have passed on them?

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

They should have had the scouting/player devlopment to know

to pass on said players, or to be able to succesfuly devlope them. Its wasnt just them, Bowden managed to not improve the farm system from the crap the Expos left us. That is saying something. Bowden has no form on rebuliding, other than signing marginal players to more money than anyone in their right mind would pay them(Guzman, Kearns, etc). Kasten did nothing for this team, other than ruin one of the better moments in this teams short history, packing the house of Philly fans, and saying everything is wonderful while Bowden and him drafted bust after bust after bust. The fact that Lannan is one of the better Bowden draft picks really says something about his ability. Rizzo has also gone a step further than the Atlanta Braves mold, as he didnt overvalue all his players.

MOAR SEVERINO!

by jeff550 on Jan 5, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Doghouse must be hibernating pretty hard to let this slide

Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion man

by TJL on Jan 5, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Doghouse says, "BOWDEN!!!!"

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Jan 5, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

[Shakes fist]

Mon pauvre vieux, les empires s'écroulent, les républiques s'effondrent et les imbéciles demeurent.

by Doghouse on Jan 5, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

The agument that Stras should sit early so he can play late...

…makes no sense to me at all. Wins in April are, in fact, just as important as wins in September. If the Nats think they can compete for a playoff spot, they are thinking that because they expect that Strasburg will make them competitive!. I’m pretty sure that they don’t thunk they can get there without him, and if they bury themselves in the standings in April/May because they keep Stras in ice fir a potential playoff push then…. There Won’t Be A Playoff Push! (sorry for the excessive emphasis)

If they are in a position to compete in late July, then they should consider trading for a pitcher to try to fill Stras’ shoes down the stretch, but they better not (i.e. they won’t) risk a career-ending injury for the sake of one campaign.

Rob

--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds

by RobBobS on Jan 5, 2012 12:06 PM EST via mobile reply actions   2 recs

"thunk"? "fir"?

Damn iPhone.

Rob

--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds

by RobBobS on Jan 5, 2012 12:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Dat der’s AAAAA-Ok Rob boy……it mak-a-me fill rhat back at home, way donn yunder in Alamabama. Whupass dunn thought I was-a-ahole fer poking sum fun at him, not knowing I REALLY AM from Alamabama! lol BTW…..that is not as bad or funny as some of the “auto-correct” stuff I have seen come from iPhones and Blackberrys!

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Matt Stared agrees

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Jan 5, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Speaking of Alamabama……ROLL TIDE ROLL on Monday Night! Oh….my bad, it is actually pronounced as, Ro’ Ty’ Ro’ down there! lol Regardless, BEAT LSWho!

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh yeah…..there’s surely no love lost between Bama and LSU. lol That’s gonna be a great game Monday night. I think the two teams actually score touchdowns in the rematch though….and hopefully it won’t go to OT again. My prediction….Bama wins by 10.

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

"Whupass dunn"?

For a second there, you had me goin’ – until I realized that “dunn” wasn’t capitalized. Peace, brother.

PS: Half my family (the good half) is from Jasper, AL. T’other half is from Georgia, where they say that when you cross the state-line into ‘Bama, you gotta’ set your watch back ten years (I’m sure you’ve hears that one, sullyzz). Seems like everybody in the world has to have somebody to look down on.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Jan 5, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I grew up in Alabama, and have my graduate degree from an Alabama university (hence my avatar photo)….I get made fun of ALL the time; but it is usually good-nature ribbing, so I don’t mind. I am actually from Opelika, which is the twin city of Auburn. Looking forward to my home state winning THREE STRAIGHT NCAA FOOTBALL NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS! lol

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Hell man, you're from LA!

Roll Tide.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Jan 5, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s Right…..LA; Lower Alabama! lol

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't disagree

But, while April games are = September, they really aren’t in terms of playoff chases etc. If they are in a shot of the wild card, teams play differently, and there is different enthusiasm in the clubs dugout. If its possible it would be a good opportunity for Strasburg to play in that atmosphere instead of sitting.

They have to make it there regardless, but I think a late season push is for the best.

You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!

by Bsullivan on Jan 5, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

Best you can hope for is that they take every opportunity to limit his innings (or limit the “hard innings” at least) in games where the outcome isn’t in question. Or maybe just limit his pitches, I don’t know. Gotta be creative about it if you want any hope of him playing at the end of the season without deviating from the plan.

by brs03 on Jan 5, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok...........

another wasted year………STRAS’ 4th. ZIMM 8th. JZIMMs’ third………………

Exactly how much time do you think these guys have?

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not a wasted year

I don’t even know what you’re talking about. If Stras puts up 170 innings of 2.50 ERA, 140 K pitching, and if the rest of the what-ifs take place as hoped, then the Nats will be in contention for a playoff run. How is that “wasting” a season?

Rob

--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds

by RobBobS on Jan 5, 2012 1:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

You don't sit............

STRAS in the playoffs………This is literally the DUMBEST idea I’ve ever heard…….

And 10 posters here at Federal talk about it on a daily basis…………..

The question should have always been, "how does STRAS’ pitch in October? Not the defeatest attitude shown here.

If STRAS has to start spring training in April and his first start is in MAY then thats what you do…………

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

What exactly...............

Is the problem with limiting him early……….Puting him off a week at the break……….A mysterious 21 day stint? Nothing.

And I want to get one thing clear. I am not auguing the NATS should do this. I am auguing they will do this…………..

STRAS will be there if there is a play of run and he will pitch 200-205 innings depending on world series appearances…………

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 12:58 PM EST reply actions  

If the doctors say limit him to 170 innings

Then limit him to 170 innings. Period.

Rob

--"Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." -- Mal Reynolds

by RobBobS on Jan 5, 2012 1:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Whoa there boyz, let's not get ahead of ourselves

p&c in 43 and a wake-up – after that, we’ve a man’s job before us, to be sure.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Jan 6, 2012 2:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Rob.............

says the doctors says the limit is 170. Nobody said 170 between april1 and sept 1.

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 1:05 PM EST reply actions  

And its never really about..............

innings. Its about pitches………………

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 1:07 PM EST reply actions  

Now that, I fully agree with. A three pitch inning is MUCH different than a 30 pitch inning. Wouldn’t we all agree, that if all his innings are on average less than 15 pitches, that he can pitch a lot more innings? This is, however, why I am in support of him just beginning the season on time, and pitching as if there is no limit, until it is time to shut him down. I do agree, however, that maybe benching him a week prior to the allstar break, and not pitching him again until maybe a week or so after the break, would not be that much out of the ordinary to lengthen his season. I would also be in support of the Nats pitching him as the 5th Starter, but didn’t the team say that is not going to happen?

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

However…..a layoff around the break may not be healthy either….so who knows; I’d say, just let his Doc have a say in making the final determination, regardless of playoff implications.

by sullyzz on Jan 5, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

However...

I believe there is an added stress from sitting down and getting back up in between innings. The arm has to cool off and then heat up again regardless of how many pitches were thrown.

But ultimately, I think short innings will be balanced out by long innings over the course of a season. I think the pitch count should help determine how many innings on a game to game basis and then the inning count helps inform when to shut him down – which I do believe they should do around 165-170 innings. Keep in mind JZ didn’t hit the 165 mark and he pitched more in ’10 than SS did in ’11. Strasburg has never been stretched out over 115 innings so the team needs to be careful with him.

Ultimately, I don’t really care when his innings come – I believe innings are innings. I don’t really see a feasible way to hold back his innings (or really his starts) so that he has a few starts left for the postseason so why not just play him on regular rest as the number 1 starter?

I would not be opposed to making him the #5 guy to stretch him along but somebody has to make his skipped starts (can’t always count on off days) and guys in the minors would be more ready at the end of the year than the beginning. Plus you can use the expanded roster to help fill in for SS’s spot in September.

We Aim to Maim - JoseRijo es mi Amigo aka court

by rfk428 on Jan 5, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Well.........

to augue against my own posistion, STRAS’ 15 pitch innings are harder then JZIMMs 17 pitch innings. He throws harder…………

However the point everyone on this web site is missing is there was zero chance in 2011 of a playoff run………….JZIMM has a straight up 25 start 170 innings count………….

2012-Different race Different pitcher. DO SOME MANAGING, KEEP MOUTHS SHUT. STRAS pitches 170 @ September 30th. Does his job in October.

by artistfork on Jan 5, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

If he pitches 170 at october 30th

they still are going to listen to the doctors

Aim for the head baby Jesus

by Doncosmic on Jan 6, 2012 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

NO!!!!

Doctor pulls another number out his……………………….coat

by artistfork on Jan 6, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Steady men, steady.

Guide to the right, and face front. We’ve a long season ahead.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Jan 6, 2012 2:53 AM EST reply actions  

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