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Two Former Phillies Trying To Help Washington Nationals To The Top. Brad Lidge And Jayson Werth Aren't Angry...

In an MLB Network Radio interview earlier this month, 35-year-old former Astros and Phillies' closer Brad Lidge talked openly about why he wasn't going to be pitching for the Phillies the next time he threw in Citizens Bank Park after four-years, 100 saves and one World Series championship in Philadelphia. The veteran of ten MLB seasons explained that the Phillies told him they were open to bringing him back, but after he looked around for a job as a closer and found no one willing to sign him for that role, "I came back to the Phils," Lidge said, "And at that point they didn't have a spot left for me. They changed their mind, that can happen in this business, so at that point I went looking for the best spot for me."

Lidge, who was coming off a 3-year/$37M dollar deal in Philadelphia, explained that he made the decision to join the Washington Nationals on a 1-year/$1M dollar deal, "After talking to Jayson Werth for a while..."

Star-divide

"I really like the way the team is going," Lidge continued in discussing his new team with the MLB Network Radio hosts, "I think that they have a chance of getting to the playoffs this year and it's going to be an exciting year there." As for the Philly team he and Werth left behind? The right-hander told Philadelphia Inquirer writer Bob Brookover in an article published Tuesday night entitled, "Inside the Phillies: Lidge wishes Phillies had been more honest", that after looking around for a job as a closer, he realized he wanted to return to Philadelphia and, "'Right after New Year's, I said [to agent Rex Gary], 'Let's go back to Philadelphia for sure.' At some point in mid-January, we said, 'Let's talk about what we want to do.' They said, 'We've got nothing.' That was unexpected.'"

Phillies' GM Ruben Amaro, Jr., who took some criticism and butted heads with Scott Boras this winter over Philadelphia's decision to back out of a what the agent thought was a done deal with another former Phillies' closer, Ryan Madson, and instead sign former Red Sox' stopper Jonathan Paplebon, told the Philadelphia Inquirer's Mr. Brookover that the Phillies and Lidge's representatives, "'... talked about a modest deal early. At the time, it wasn't something they wanted to do, so we moved in a different direction.'" Lidge didn't have any harsh criticism for how his situation was handled, however, telling the Inquirer writer, "I just wish they had been more honest early, so I would have known that I couldn't count on them later in the process."

Lidge, who made just 25 appearances and threw 19.1 IP for Philadelphia in 2011 over which he did, however, have a 1.40 ERA, 2.82 FIP, 13 walks (6.05 BB/9) and 23 K's (10.71 K/9) after dealing with rotator cuff issues, wasn't bothered by the fact that the Phillies turned around and signed 33-year-old right-hander Chad Qualls for 1-year/$1.15 million after Lidge had signed with Washington, because, Lidge explained, "'Ruben was honest with me about the injury risk being too big,' Lidge said. 'He said, 'We might make another move to get somebody who is not an injury risk.'"

Lidge comes off more mildly annoyed and maybe insulted or hurt than angry, which is pretty much the same vibe Jayson Werth was giving off after he left the Phillies to sign for 7-years/$126M dollars with Washington only to watch a team that couldn't afford to pay him what he wanted (6-7-years/$120) turn around and sign left-hander Cliff Lee to a 5-year/$120M dollar deal a year after they'd traded Lee to Seattle for prospects.

Werth didn't criticize the Phillies at time, instead telling the Philadelphia Inquirer's Paul Hagen in an article entitled, "Werth on Phillies, Lee: 'They could have had us both'", that he simply thought the team could have had them both if they handled things differently in the past. "'They ended up paying him a lot more [5 years, $120 million] than they would have if they'd signed him the year before,'" Werth said, putting on his general manager's cap, "'Then we would have had him. Chances are if they had signed him before they traded him, it probably would have made it a little easier to sign me." But that's not how it worked out, and Werth explained in the article that once he hit the free agent market, "'I was trying to maximize things,'" and the Nats' offer blew the others away.

In a press conference reintroducing Lee to Philadelphia last winter, the Phillies' general manager explained that the choice between Werth (or a right fielder in general) and a no.1-starter-type like Lee wasn't a hard one to make. "Frankly, I don’t say this to slight our former rightfielder," Amaro told reporters then, "but I think to a man we felt like this would have much more of an impact on our club moving forward because frankly I believe in pitching and defense winning championships. We’ve seen it over the last several years, that’s what wins World Series."

Werth was happy with the decision to join the Nationals, (not just because of the money, you're cynical), but because, as he explained to reporters when he was introduced to D.C., he saw big things in the future for the nation's capital's Nats. "One thing I saw with the Nationals teams over the past few seasons playing against them was just a grittiness that they had and a will to win." "I've always been a big fan of an underdog," Werth said, "and I think the situation here in Washington is one that going forward we're going to put something together that I think the city and fans will come accustomed to love and come out and see us on a nightly basis."

Lidge too told NatsInsider.com and CSNWashington.com reporter Mark Zuckerman that like Werth he thought the Nationals were seen differently these days as he explained in an article this week entitled, "Lidge: Phils don't take Nats lightly anymore." Whereas at one time if you dropped a series to the Nationals you thought something had gone wrong Lidge explained, now, "'... in order to win a series against the Nationals, you better be at your absolute best. That changed. I really saw it last year.'"

The Nationals, skipper Davey Johnson, GM Mike Rizzo and everyone else in the NL East knows that the Phillies are still the team to beat and the Nats seem to be going out of their way recently to take the rivalry up a notch with both the GM and manager making the Phillies a target in public time and time again. They have two members of the World Champion Phillies' teams helping the cause now as they try to unseat the defending NL East champs. And according to the Philadelphia Inquirer's Bob Brookover, whose article started this discussion, they have a reliever that might just be better than most people are giving him credit for right now:

"Arm injuries prevented Lidge from making it to the starting line in 2010 and 2011 and they also sapped the life from his mid-90s fastball. To his credit, Lidge learned to pitch with his high-80s fastball by relying more than ever on his floor-dropping slider.

"In fact, he pitched far better than the public perceived in his final two seasons, converting 28 of 33 save opportunities while posting a 2.49 ERA in 75 games. He also struck out 75 batters in 65 innings, proof that the nasty bite on his slider still left hitters swinging at air."

Add Lidge's arm to a bullpen with closer Drew Storen, All-Star reliever Tyler Clippard, Sean Burnett and Henry Rodriguez and the Nats' bullpen matches up well against any team in the league. If Lidge, and Werth, are a little angry and looking to show the Phillies they were wrong to give up on them both, that can only help.

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alt. headline: "Brad Lidge likes Jayson Werth's Tone"

Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion man

by TJL on Feb 22, 2012 1:13 PM EST reply actions  

+1 wish I remembered that quote while writing this...

Vivian Jaffe: "Have you ever transcended space and time?"
Albert Markovski: "Yes. No. Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about."

by Patrick Reddington on Feb 22, 2012 1:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Six starters and six inna pen

Strasburg
Gio
JZimm
Lannan
Wang
EJax

Gorzlanny
Detwiler
Clippard
Storen
Burnett
Rodriquez

I call that a full house, aces over kings.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 22, 2012 4:15 PM EST reply actions  

Let's just keep him secret,

shall we?

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Feb 23, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

And hidden. Buried even, and hide the map.

"I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you."
-Leslie Nielsen, Airplane

by Jorgath on Feb 23, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Oops, where do we put Lidge?

Det still have an option?

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 22, 2012 4:17 PM EST reply actions  

No, and he shouldn't be the first to think about anyway

Matter of fact, he SHOULD be starting.

Rob

--"Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'..." -- Jayne Cobb

by RobBobS on Feb 22, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Instead of Lannan?

Possibly.

But this does not change the glaringly obvious: somebody has to go.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 22, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Of this there can be no doubt.

Unless of course one of these guys can play CF.

Rob

--"Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'..." -- Jayne Cobb

by RobBobS on Feb 22, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Let me re-phrase that: somebody good has to go.

You may think differently, but I would not call any of these guys mediocre.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 22, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I wouldn't call any of them that

I think Lannan’s the least of the “other three”, and he would still crack most if not all ML rotations.

Rob

--"Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'..." -- Jayne Cobb

by RobBobS on Feb 22, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

The real problem is finding a team with a bad rotation or bull pen that actually cares about fixing it.

Most teams don’t seem to be interested in making those kinds of swaps right now. I think that we will see Lannan in AAA, not because it is where he deserves to be, but because it is the only way to keep all our players on the team.

#extendZim

by chubias on Feb 22, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

If we go with a 6-man rotation, every SP works off five full days of rest

which means fewer starts, and considerably lessens the impact of Strasburg’s innings limit. Might even render the great innings limit debate moot; regular season, at least. Let’s deal with play-offs if and when.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 22, 2012 5:00 PM EST reply actions  

How so?

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 22, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

If JayZ only pitches every 6th day

he only gets a maximum of 27 starts.

Rob

--"Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'..." -- Jayne Cobb

by RobBobS on Feb 22, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

(or we're you just funnin' us?)

Rob

--"Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'..." -- Jayne Cobb

by RobBobS on Feb 22, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

"were", not "we're"

[dangit]

Rob

--"Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'..." -- Jayne Cobb

by RobBobS on Feb 22, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I wasn't funnin'

In a perfect world (yeah huh?), six guys would each gets 27 starts – which is perhaps a couple less than say, Gio might otherwise get. Izzat a big deal? Besides, you’d still have the flexibility to deal with the vicissitudes of a long season as needed.

Hm, you say that Rizzo has already nixed this? I hadn’t heard – but nobody ever tells me anything.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 22, 2012 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Assuming you have your starters averaging 7.0 IP per start(just a number not a prediction)

you have 1134 innings from your SP’s. Now say that all of the 5 starters get an equal work load, your looking at about 227 innings per SP. Now the way most nats fans tier our pitchers is Gio, Stras, and JZimm in one tier, and Jackson, Wang, Lannan, Det, etc in another(yes I know Jackson could jump up). With a 5 man rotation the top tier gets 681 innings, and the bottom 2 getting 454 innings. Now with a 6 man rotation, assuming the same qualifiers 567 to the top tier, and 567 to the bottom tier. So the bottom tier gets about 100 more innings in a 6 man rotation than a 5 man rotation

MOAR SEVERINO!

by jeff550 on Feb 22, 2012 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

OK I understand now, Jeff - but I don't agree with your premise

..or should I say premises. Is there such a word? (“Hey you, off da’ premises before I call a cop!”).

These are starting pitchers, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to count anything but starts. Innings? Hell, they get what they get, and that depends primarily on the quality of those starts, not their number.

You cannot simply begin with the assumption, let alone the requirement – even for the sake of discussion – that your starters will go seven, then divvy up that number various ways, depending on how many starters you plan to have, s’if you was dividing up dessert at a rooming-house.

However, I believe it’s fair to say that, given 27-28 starts, our top three could each approach 200 IP. Damn good. The next three, not so much, but backed up by a strong pen, still good enough.

I think it’s patently clear that a given number of starts (162) divided up six ways instead of four will yield more rest and quality starts for each a’ dem six soup-bones. Furthermore, seems to me that’s a particularly important consideration for them what has recently – or semi-recently – undergone major reconstructive surgery. Call me crazy.

That’s it. It’s as far as I’m willing to go, for the unknowns are too numerous to count.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 22, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, this

It’s really not that complicated

by d_c_guy on Feb 22, 2012 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Past performance is a mathematical guarantee of future results?

Not in my world.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 23, 2012 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

The Year of the Dragon

You ready for this? No. You aren’t. Nobody is. But I’m tellin’ ye, Chien-Ming Wang is the guy to watch this season. The good omens are everywhere, and you boyz know how I loves me some good omens.

Wang will open the season as our number 4 starter – ahead of Lannan; ahead of Detwiler; and ahead of EJax. What might happen with them other esteemed gen’munz is anybody’s guess, but Chien-Ming Wang will quietly and calmly have himself one shocker of a blow-out season. Just you wait.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 23, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Alright, there are 162 starts in a season

5 man rotation, about 97 starts for the big 3, 65 for the others

you can figure out that 6 man would be less for the “big 3”

You also have to remeber than baseball players are creatures of habit, and Lannan, JZimm, Wang, Det, Jackson, and Gio have been piching in a 5 man rotation for years, you dont mess with that

MOAR SEVERINO!

by jeff550 on Feb 22, 2012 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

All true,

but Rizzo has said “not no but hell no”.

I think they believe it’s more important to get Stras used to pitching on 4 days to build him up for next year. And also, the point that jeff makes is important.

Rob

--"Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'..." -- Jayne Cobb

by RobBobS on Feb 22, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, these guys are trained for 4 days off

See Zimmermann, Jordan 2011 for what can happen to someone conditioned for a certain number of days off when you add a day to that. I don’t think that you can undo years of conditioning in a month or so of ST and so risk everyone being out of whack every start…

by William.Hatheway on Feb 22, 2012 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

"4 days to build him up for next year."

Rob, that is ridiculous. He’ll build up just fine as it is, and you do not want to take any unnecessary risks with this kid’s golden arm.

Guy pitches 7 – 9 innings, he takes a beating. First thing he has to do is soak that arm in ice. If he doesn’t, it’ll swell up and turn blue. Next morning, everything hurts. His eyebrows hurt. He has to call a cab to get to the bathroom. Believe me, I know pitchers. You telling me an extra day or two off will eff them up, particularly when they can train in between starts? Nah.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 22, 2012 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

no manager or GM is going to bet his job on a 6-man rotation.....

you may as well rail against closers…

"...I don't want to go watch American League baseball." -Lance Berkman....
I wanna watch the "... tape-measure-testing, laser-throwing, eyeblack-oozing baseball cyborg."

by cat daddy3000 on Feb 22, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions  

You're right, more's the pity.

Somebody – maybe a couple sombodies – will be ST trade-bait, no question.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 23, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Rather off topic, but do you know what is really, really great?

Having tons of brand new baseball news to pick over every day. Who is in camp? Who is throwing? Who is ITBSOHL, and who is not? Who has been interviewed today, and what did they say?

[insert obligatory Abbott & Costello joke here]

It’s 60 degrees today and I can feel baseball like it’s here already …

by d_c_guy on Feb 22, 2012 5:54 PM EST reply actions  

THIRD BASE!

Someone had to say it…

"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"--The Brain

by brook on Feb 22, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

hehe

I got to sit next to an open window all day today.. it was wonderful.

by dc Roach on Feb 22, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I got to sit by a closed window on an overcast day...

and the weather forecast is for a wintery mix of rain and snow tomorrow. But the players are in camp and baseball is just around the corner…

"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"--The Brain

by brook on Feb 22, 2012 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

saw a 93F roadside temperature sign today.......officially 87F.

(center of Texas) mountain laurels are blooming, red bud trees are budding…..never had a Winter, except for the no-baseball* part….

*North American…

"...I don't want to go watch American League baseball." -Lance Berkman....
I wanna watch the "... tape-measure-testing, laser-throwing, eyeblack-oozing baseball cyborg."

by cat daddy3000 on Feb 22, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I miss windows that open

(work on the 11th floor)

"I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you."
-Leslie Nielsen, Airplane

by Jorgath on Feb 23, 2012 7:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I still have Windows at work

but my laptop is Snow Leopard

(ba-dum-dum!)

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Feb 23, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

As a Nats fan, I've long been grateful that my windows are all on the ground-floor

But Adam LaRoche sez, “That’s fixin to change” – and I have a good feeling he’s right. Come on April.

"I can go to my left or right, I am amphibious." - Charles Shackelford

by Whupass on Feb 23, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

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